Why the Alpine Starts on Rainier?

[Marmot Prince]

It sounds like alot of parties start at 2 am or even 10 pm from Muir camp. This sounds pretty extreme considering they summit and get down before noon. In the Rockies you have to do this to dodge thunderstorms, but why do you have to do this on Rainier?

 

Do the glaciers get out of condition so severely that even roped and guided travel is dangerous? Or do the guides just do this so that their herds had a good chance of summitting?

 

EDIT:

 

I have done this on some Sierra 14ers but I am not considering doing the whole route in one day and camping on the summit.

 

I have altitude experience from the Sierras and some glacier experience in Canada, ie probably 40 hours on glaciers roped over the last 3 years.

 

I would never consider a solo trip if it was not for the groomed, well travelled DC route. I would strongly avoid soloing glaciers but do solo some mellow glaciers, ie those that form at 3000' and are only a few km big.

 

I've done alpine starts before, ie, 3 am. There are obvious reasons, depending on mountain and route, for doing these but are also often these are personal choice and part of an overall strategy of climbing so I'm looking for specific details on their appropriateness for Rainier.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Marmot Prince

[Pete_H]

If I was a guide I'd want to be at the pub spending my tip by cocktail hour too.

[genepires]

the early start time in not limited to guided ascents. Most of all climbers leave in the dark morning hours. There are some climbers who choose to leave later in the morning.

 

It's not that the snow is much more dangerous but the snow conditions can suck in the afternoon. Lots of post holing (in the summer)

 

if some thing goes wrong, you have lots of daylight to deal with the problem. (maybe even get a heli in before nightfall and its cold temps)

 

I would rather climb up in the dark than descend in the dark and try to find tent in the dark.

 

 

[Whatcomboy]

Maybe you'd like to sleep in till noon and have coffee in bed?

[Marmot Prince]

The idea is, I can probably make the 9000 foot climb in a day and camp at the summit. The problem with this plan is that I'll probably get to the top in the evening, and crossing glaciers later in the day.

 

This doesn't seem to be normal if people are making 2 am starts, so I'm wondering if there is a serious flaw in a one day ascent that has me the glaciers past 5pm.

[kurthicks]

That's a great way to get AMS, at the very least.

[Marmot Prince]

That's a great way to get AMS, at the very least.

 

I've done 6000 feet in a day to summit the 14ers in the sierras, and that's coming from sea level the previous day. It hurts but alot of things hurt when you go climbing mountains.

[Fairweather]

Agree with Kurt, you've described a good recipe for AMS. A one day ascent is a great idea, but climbing 9000' to spend the night at over 14,000 feet can turn out badly even for the fittest climber.

[Marmot Prince]

Yeah, except i'm not a robot and if I feel bad, I'll go down or camp at one of the regular spots on the way.

 

Back to the normal topic, do conditions change dramatically in the afternoon to justify these alpine starts?

Edited December 31, 2011 by Marmot Prince

[B Deleted_Beck]

Yeah, except i'm not a robot and if I feel bad, I'll go down or camp at one of the regular spots on the way.

 

Back to the normal topic, do conditions change dramatically in the afternoon to justify these alpine starts?

 

But the most likely scenario is that you'll come down with problems sometime in the wee hours the following day. All the gnarly AMS stories on 14ers I've read about have been with guys who ascended rapidly and then stayed the night above 14k. Remember that guy on Shasta in the winter of 10? Very experienced climber, and halfway acclimatized from a week of climbing before, to boot. Getting up and down in a day is one thing, but going up and staying up is totally different.

 

Nobody is gonna tell you not to do it, but if it goes against conventional wisdom, don't expect a lot of support.

[B Deleted_Beck]

To answer the question, though... From what I can tell, unconventional climbing often calls for unconventional start times. 10pm, 7am, 2am, 3pm... You start when you need to achieve the objectives you're aiming for, taking everything into consideration- to include weather and temperature. Sometimes it's so cold that even bright warm direct sunlight doesn't ever soften the snow enough to plunge. Other times a warm front might soften snow with or without daylight. Etc.

[Choada_Boy]

Not to mention getting stuck behind the Conga Line.

[Marmot Prince]

Yeah, except i'm not a robot and if I feel bad, I'll go down or camp at one of the regular spots on the way.

 

Back to the normal topic, do conditions change dramatically in the afternoon to justify these alpine starts?

 

But the most likely scenario is that you'll come down with problems sometime in the wee hours the following day. All the gnarly AMS stories on 14ers I've read about have been with guys who ascended rapidly and then stayed the night above 14k. Remember that guy on Shasta in the winter of 10? Very experienced climber, and halfway acclimatized from a week of climbing before, to boot. Getting up and down in a day is one thing, but going up and staying up is totally different.

 

Nobody is gonna tell you not to do it, but if it goes against conventional wisdom, don't expect a lot of support.

Yeah, except i'm not a robot and if I feel bad, I'll go down or camp at one of the regular spots on the way.

 

Back to the normal topic, do conditions change dramatically in the afternoon to justify these alpine starts?

 

But the most likely scenario is that you'll come down with problems sometime in the wee hours the following day. All the gnarly AMS stories on 14ers I've read about have been with guys who ascended rapidly and then stayed the night above 14k. Remember that guy on Shasta in the winter of 10? Very experienced climber, and halfway acclimatized from a week of climbing before, to boot. Getting up and down in a day is one thing, but going up and staying up is totally different.

 

Nobody is gonna tell you not to do it, but if it goes against conventional wisdom, don't expect a lot of support.

 

I've been looking at accident reports on 14ers, do you have a link to the Shasta story?

[layton]

if you can climb fast, sometime the crack of noon club, or swing shift (3pm-ish) is a good time to start on crowded climbs.

 

a lot of my fastest times on some longer stuff have been rolling out of bed at 11:30 in the morning!

[Bigtree]

I try and climb Rainier once per year and always the second week in June. Usual start time from Muir or Schurman for me is midnight. I enjoy and climb most efficiently in the colder morning temps. I also find the elevation ticks past me more quickly in the dark. I usually top out at 6 ish leaving me the morning the get back to camp before things heat up (can't stand the heat), snow starts balling up on my crampons and the bridges, rocks etc soften/loosen up. The conga line never bothers me when I do encounter it. In fact I enjoy it in an inspirational way - lots of people from all over the world climbing their own "Everest". Some make and some don't, but they're all trying to achieve something.

[genepires]

The idea is, I can probably make the 9000 foot climb in a day and camp at the summit. The problem with this plan is that I'll probably get to the top in the evening, and crossing glaciers later in the day.

 

probably the issue I would have with this plan is that I would have to carry up an extra 15lb (maybe more) of gear up that 9000ft. That extra weight will be felt.

[DPS]

I've been looking at accident reports on 14ers, do you have a link to the Shasta story?

 

http://www.summitpost.org/reflections-and-lessons-from-mt-shasta/624046

 

I fully believe that you mostly outrun the worse symptoms of AMS when you do Rainier in a day or two. I felt really pretty crappy for a day after moving into camp 14k on Denali after spending 5 days of yo-yoing camps to get there, even though I had been from sea level to 14k < 24 hrs many times before. Of the few HACE/HAPE deaths on Rainier that I recall, it was a situation where someone (A scientist recently I think) camped on the summit, even after spending a fair amount of time at altititude.

[tele turnin]

 

I've been looking at accident reports on 14ers, do you have a link to the Shasta story?

 

Probably the most informative story you will find on it:

http://www.summitpost.org/against-all-hope-life-partnership-and-loss-on-mt-shasta/626323

 

Edited December 31, 2011 by tele turnin

[Marmot Prince]

I've been looking at accident reports on 14ers, do you have a link to the Shasta story?

 

Probably the most informative story you will find on it:

http://www.summitpost.org/against-all-hope-life-partnership-and-loss-on-mt-shasta/626323

 

This is gold for any climber. Thanks.

 

But it looks like they were trained and acclimated and didn't do anything wrong other than get caught in bad conditions. Camping at 14k is not really that high in the mountaineering world, everyone climbing Denali pretty much did the same thing as these guys did. I'm not sure what the lessons to preventing HACE are here.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Marmot Prince

[Pete_H]

I'm guessing guided trips start super early for a couple reasons. First, things can get more dangerous from sun exposure, such as snow bridges softening up, wet avalanches, cornice and serac collapse, etc. Its also easier to move when the snow is firmed up as opposed to slushy and deep.

 

Second, big guided groups include people of different abilities and some people may be really fucking slow.

 

Finally, if anything did happen and someone got injured its better if its noon instead of 6:00 p.m.

 

So a competent, fit person probably wouldn't have to leave Muir at 2 a.m. to tag the summit unless they just wanted to get done early.

[ScaredSilly]

The conventional reason one starts early in the morning is because:

 

1a) The snow gets sloppy as the day progresses. The classic fubar is descending Cooper's Spur on Hood.

 

1b) Thunder storms. The classic is the Grand Teton lightning strikes.

 

2) If it takes longer than you think you have more daylight while you are tired versus being in the dark and tired.

 

3) Weekend warrior - get to high camp Saturday, summit on Sunday, descend, and drive home.

 

4) If on a heavily used guided route - to get in front of the guides.

 

For me personally, the last decade plus for Rainier trips (Curtis, Ptarmigan, Mowich, Willis, DC, Kautz, Furher) I would say our earliest start was about 3am (DC from Ing. Flats) and our latest 6am (Kautz). Last summer we were lucky to roll out of the tent by 6am during our tour de force week long trips up Rainier, Adams, and Hood. It worked out fine for us but we knew what we were getting ourselves into.

 

[denalidevo]

I'm guessing guided trips start super early for a couple reasons.

Speaking as a guide:

Its... easier to move when the snow is firmed up as opposed to slushy and deep.

Spot on.

 

Second, big guided groups include people of different abilities and some people may be really fucking slow.

Even more important than the first one.

 

Finally, if anything did happen and someone got injured its better if its noon instead of 6:00 p.m.

Nailed it!

 

So a competent, fit person probably wouldn't have to leave Muir at 2 a.m. to tag the summit unless they just wanted to get done early.

 

Certainly not! Sunset climbs are my favorite. Nothing like summitting in the late afternoon/evening, going to bed at high camp after a summit and sleeping soundly over "sleeping" in the afternoon before an alpine start.

 

The bottom line for guided summit climbs is the schedule: The logistics of safely guiding eight inexperienced strangers to the summit and back over a three day period (the most common timeframe) is the single biggest factor.

[111]

In the afternoon mushiness crevasse snow bridges get soft and are more apt to collapse with a climbers weight. I've had a partner punch through a snowbridge in the afternoon, but it was fine when we crossed in the morning.

[PLC]

In my experience, the alpine start is not necessary. I've climbed all the Washington volcanoes, plus Hood and Shasta car-to-car (other than Glacier Peak) and I never left the parking lot before 6AM. Sometimes the snow gets a little sloppy in the afternoons but I'd rather deal with that than feel sick all day from lack of sleep.

 

In fact, I doubt if I would be capable of climbing up and down in one day if I hadn't slept.

[ivan]

It sounds like alot of parties start at 2 am or even 10 pm from Muir camp. This sounds pretty extreme considering they summit and get down before noon. In the Rockies you have to do this to dodge thunderstorms, but why do you have to do this on Rainier?

 

Do the glaciers get out of condition so severely that even roped and guided travel is dangerous? Or do the guides just do this so that their herds had a good chance of summitting?

rainier's a long damn way from a decent bar, and there's happy hour to be considered...