ScaredSilly

Don't you mean a couple of Stinkydog climbers ... besides that is what pickups are for :-)

Nice job on getting out. And yeah, when starting low taking two days to get to a high camp makes the climb much more enjoyable. Also we have found that for routes that start low and go long that it is worth carrying up and over, coming down the DC. It does require a shuttle but one can stash a car or hitch down - though this summer that might be problematic.

USGS has an online database. Just gotta find the closest upstream station https://waterdata.usgs.gov/nwis/uv?site_no=12451000

One needs put a few things in perspective about the classic routes such LR. If one thinks about the FA it was done in August. 50 Classics was written in the late 70s. Since then anthropomorphic climate change has greatly affected many of these routes. In the late 80s when I did LR people regularly did the route through July. Rarely is that the case now. What makes LR a classic over PR? That is pretty simple. LR has a bit of everything ... glacier travel, a climb to a high camp in a great position, long sections of exposed climbing that does not end until right at the summit. PR has little of that, a long hike to a high camp, at best 2000' of climbing, then a mostly leisurely 2000' stroll to the summit.

Sounds like a fall just above Thumb Rock. https://www.nps.gov/mora/learn/news/search-underway-for-a-climber-missing-on-librty-ridge.htm https://www.nps.gov/mora/learn/news/liberty-ridge-search-confirms-skier-fatality.htm

Nice job, before I get too old and decrypted I want to do the traverse.

I recently found my hard copy of this guide and seeing it has not been posted up (at least I could not find it) I thought for fun I would post it. It was written probably 25 plus years ago by Make Dale. The Cascade Brush and Bushwhack Rating System by Mark Dale For years there has been something sadly lacking in the climbing world. Something necessary to help describe the total mountaineering experience in those areas blessed with challenging peaks surrounded by primeval forest. That something is a brush and bushwhack rating system. After years of the hand-to-limb combat encountered in below-timberline approaches, one comes to realize that this part of an ascent can be half or more of the battle. (Notice the use of fighting terms.) And yet, just how does one accurately relate this important facet of a climb in words? "It was ugly, real ugly," "Brutal," "A freaking flail," "Oh, not too bad, but I did lose a pint of blood." Well, these are pretty good subjective descriptions, but what's missing here is something more definitive. What we need is a way to portray in a more precise manner those endearing struggles with the brush. Therefore I propose the Cascade Brush and Bushwhack Rating System. This system is so named because most of my experience in the past ten years of climbing has been in the Washington Cascades. It's perfectly applicable, though, to other ranges of a similar nature, e.g. the Olympics, Northern Selkirks, British Columbia Coast Range, Alaska Range or any mountain group where below-timberline approaches necessitate brush-beating and bushwhacking. This system rates both difficulty and grade much like the technical climbing ratings in use today. Before defining system nomenclature here are a few guidelines for describing your favorite flail: 1. Conditions described must be when the approach is snow-free, since snowpack greatly affects most bushwhacks, reducing their difficulty considerably. 2. More demanding terrain, e.g. cliffy or steep, will increase a bushwhack's difficulty and grade as compared to one with the same vegetation on level ground. 3. Both the density and the type of brush are important factors. I'll take an open area of mature devil's club over a dense stand of slide alder any day. 4. Grade is determined by both time and distance involved in completing the approach, as well as the duration of the difficulties. 5. Since creek and river crossings play an important part of many approaches, a special sub-rating has been devised for these. 6. When a mechanical device such as a machete is used the bushwhack is no longer "free," and an aid sub-rating must be used. Difficulty Ratings These apply to the "free" difficulties (no aid used) and range from BW1 to BW5, where BW stands for "bushwhack." Difficulty ratings apply to those areas of worst brush that can't be avoided. BW1 Light brush. Travel mostly unimpeded, only occasional use of hands required (e.g. mature open forest). BW2 Moderate brush. Occasional heavy patches. Pace slowed, frequent use of hands required. BW3 Heavy brush. Hands needed constantly. Some loss of blood may occur due to scratches and cuts. Travel noticably hindered. Use of four-letter words at times. BW4 Severe brush. Pace less than one mile per hour. Leather gloves and heavy clothing required to avoid loss of blood. Much profanity and mental anguish. Thick stands of brush requiring circumnavigation are encountered. BW5 Extreme brush. Multiple hours needed to travel one mile. Full body armor desirable. Wounds to extremities likely, eye protection needed. Footing difficult due to lack of visibility. Loss of temper inevitable. Aid Ratings When artificial means are used to penetrate brush, then an aid rating should be used to describe the device required. These ratings range from BA1 to BA5, where BA stands for "brush aid": BA1 Machete or sickle BA2 Gas-powered weed-eater BA3 Chainsaw BA4 Agent orange BA5 Bulldozer Creek and River Ratings These ratings are used to describe the difficulty in crossing watercourses. The range is WA1 to WA5, where WA stands for "water": WA1 A dry crossing is possible by using rocks or logs. WA2 Possible wet crossing, but a dry crossing can be accomplished with some finesse. WA3 Wet crossing, ankle- to calf-deep. WA4 Wet crossing, calf- to knee-deep. WA5 Wet crossing, greater than knee-deep, possibility of getting swept downstream. WA6 Water deep enough to require swimming. WA7 Water temperature, current velocity, to factors make an attempt to cross potentially lethal. (Frequently a factor in Alaska and New Zealand, for instance). Grades Grades range from I to VI and follow the same general guidelines as climbing grades: I Brush beating can be done in a few hours or less. II Generally will take less than half a day. III Could take most of a day, but hardened parties will be able to complete in a short day. IV Will take a long day and involve continuous battle. V A 1+ to 2-day bushwhack, difficulty rarely less than BW4, large quantities of bandaids and wound dressings will be needed unless properly attired. VI The most extreme of bushwhacks, requiring over 2 days to complete with probably a BW5 encountered along the way. Epic Ratings E1 Unplanned delays require explanations to significant other. E2 Same as E1, but with companion of opposite sex (not significant other). E3 Overnight bivy required. E4 Same as E3, but with companion of opposite sex. ... E10 Whole party vanishes. Following are some examples of rated bushwhacks: Picket Range, Goodell Creek approach -- Grade III - IV, BW4 Mt. Shuksan, White Salmon approach -- Grade I - II, BW4- Mt. Spickard, Silver Creek approach -- Grade V, BW4+ Mt. Blum, Blum Lakes approach -- Grade III, BW3+, WA5 Devils Peak, Coal Creek approach -- Grade I, BW2 Monashees, Thor Creek approach -- Grade VI, BW4, BA1 Chimney Rock, standard approach -- Grade II, BW2 And there you have it. No longer must one try to decipher the deranged mutterings of a victim of jungle warfare. A person needs only to apply the appropriate brush ratings to relate his brutal experience to others. And who knows? With advances in bush technology and the competitive nature of climbers, we'll probably see difficulties pushed to BW6 and beyond. And there just HAVE to be some Grade VII's out there! So come on, folks! The next time you report a mountaineering trip that involves green hell, use the Cascade Brush and Bushwhack Rating System to tell others about it. They'll be glad you did!

Perhaps a better solution would be to have single sticky forum thread for the south side TR. In a similar fashion as there is a single sticky thread for Mt. Hood.

You are correct that the Hogsback shifted. It goes back forth and has done so for centuries. It is well documented. While that does change the route some and where people may go, my comment was more of an overall assessment of climbers these days just going for or being given a second tool way too early rather than learning good technique. Which for lower angle slopes is not efficient and later becomes a crutch because they lack they proper technique. I will be honest taking a new person who was correctly placed in the middle and giving them two tools gets them up the hill in the short term but does nothing for them long term in making them a competed climber.

Permits have been required on Adams for sometime now. But I have never bothered mostly because I have not been on the south side in 35 years. The other sides are more interesting.

Some misc ramblings. I remember from doing the route in late August of 97. We rambled up to the Angel Glacier that afternoon, mostly solo, think we used the rope in a couple of places. Had a nice bivy and watched a couple of others top out in the dark. During the night the face to the right lighted up with rock fall. In the morning we crossed the glacier, no cracks that I remember. The bergshrund was interesting as I literally burrowed a hole through it. The lower slopes were straightforward. The pillar my partner John lead as he swapped out his boots for rock slippers. His secret weapon. Some where above I lost my lead head so John lead for a while but then bonked as it got dark. I remember coming around a corner and here he was both tools in marginal névé and a couple of crappy nuts for a belay. My turn. Mean while it was now pissing sideways with snow and all I could see above me was a huge ass cornice. I resigned myself to having to tunnel my way through it. I told John to just talk to me as lead out. I as I went up I found some good pro, that was a relief. Finally, I made my way up to the cornice and found that if I went to the right I could by pass it. And much to my surprise I walked right up to the summit. It was now a full on gale, we bivied in the rocks and unfortunately John dropped his bivy sac so I took the outside. In the morning we headed down the west side. It was casual. I remember getting down into a nice meadow to take a break and failing asleep on my pack. I woke when I rolled off of it and into the mud. When we got to the road we snagged a ride back to the parking lot by a couple of climbers. Oddly enough I gave them the picks from my tools as they had broken a couple. I might have a few pictures but need to did through the archive.

Oddly this weekend I was sorting through stuff and read through a log I kept whilst making my second attempt on the East Buttress of Denali. Probably one of the most real and most humbling experiences because I had to call for the rescue after my partner and I were avalanched by a collapsing serac. I compare that experience to having a couple of semi trailers full of bowling balls dumped on ya. I was in the better place so my partner took the brunt of it as well as being dumped in to crevasse. After schlepping him out and back to a safe location I had to go back up solo through crevasses and retrieve gear, then call for a rescue. We got short hauled off with no assistance (a first on Denali). That was a wild ride but with great views. Eight years later I returned and did the Cassin, I remember our bivy at 15,500 on the face and with the feeling of just being out there. That said, what has been the most real are the partnerships. Egging each other on, or saying fuck it lets go drink beer. Either way we're happy.

A couple of comments, glad ya got up and down without incident but a few observations. The route has not changed, people have. People have skipped learning to be competent with a single tool and immediately go to two tools. So while one may feel way more secure using two tools in a low-dagger position that feeling is misplaced. And for what ever reason when I look at your picture it reminds of years ago when I went by three climbers in about the same place, all with their axes also in their left hand which was the the down hill side. Just after I passed them they all went sliding down the Hogsback. May just be the perspective. That said, the middle climber needs some mentoring on rope management so to keep it out from under their feet.

Nice job on getting to the north side of the hill. Lots of effort, just wish the routes were longer. Gotta bring skis though as that is really the way to go.

Interesting, it does not sound like you acclimated very well ... years ago when I was there I developed a respiratory infection on the way into Plaza Argentina. I got my SpO2 checked and remember it being in 70s but my the time I recovered it was in the lows 90s.