So You Wanna be a Mountie….

[DonnieK]

I don’t. And from what I saw this weekend I wouldn’t recommend it to you either…..

 

Organizations like the Mountaineers in Washington and the Mazamas in Oregon provide valuable services to the climbing community and the outdoor community at large in terms of supporting access, trail maintenance, teaching outdoor skills, etc. While at times these groups may end up as the butt of jokes for their “unique” climbing style, I have always respected them because they ultimately provide direct and indirect benefits to those of us in the climbing community. However, after this weekend my vision of the Mountaineers, aka “Mounties”, is no longer so rosy.

 

As a starting point, I want to quote the “[p]urposes and mission” of the Mounties. According to their website, the Mounties seek to preserve by example and teaching the beauty of the natural environment and to “encourage a spirit of good fellowship among all lovers of outdoor life.” http://www.mountaineers.org//scriptcontent/default.cfm?insert=abo_about

 

While the Mounties undoubtedly have the best of intentions, the method of teaching, encouraging and leading by example I saw this weekend does nothing of the sort. My experience was one of selfishness, and holding a self-centered view of the outdoors and access to it. No one has any greater right or entitlement to access than anyone else.

 

First, let me say that I fully support teaching people the necessary skills to climb and to do it safely, and obviously it involves taking people outdoors for hands-on training. But there is a right way to do that and a wrong way to do that. The Mounties showed me a glaringly obvious wrong way.

 

Here’s a photo of the Mounties from this weekend (problems posting it right now…will edit/add later). It was taken Saturday afternoon at the Royal Columns in Tieton. As you can see, the Mounties took over a large section of the crag all day on both Saturday and Sunday. At one point we counted at least 6 anchor stations being permanently occupied and they had many more routes/ropes set up, as many routes share anchors. At any given time, about half of the ropes were not in use and the ropes and their anchors were left up overnight, preventing anyone from beating them to it the following day. If you asked about an unused rope on a route, you were given the standard “someone is just about to climb that” routine. One rope in particular never saw any use as far as I could tell; it sat there for two days preventing anyone else from enjoying the route.

 

One of the great things about Tieton in particular is the concentration and quality of the easy and moderate routes. It’s a place to come and cut your teeth leading trad on real cracks. For that reason, many of us flock to Tieton so we can improve our skill set and take those skills into the broader environment. For the same reason the Mounties teach classes at Tieton. However, when the Mountie crew basically hogs the entire beginner area for an entire weekend, they stop living up to their stated mission. Those of us who showed up this weekend to cut our respective teeth were completely prevented from accessing many of the routes we specifically came to climb.

 

Here are the points I would like to make to the Mounties and I encourage them to rethink the way they use and impact not only the natural environment, but how they interact with the climbing community at large. Because in the end, the Mounties are part of a much larger community and they need to respect that if they truly aim to “encourage a spirit of good fellowship among all lovers of outdoor life.”

 

• Taking up a substantial part of any crag for one or more days is selfish and self centered.

• Teaching your students (by example, if not overtly) that it is appropriate in the outdoors to take control of routes or whole sections of crags solely for your own use for a day or more is selfish and self-centered.

• No individual, group or organization has any greater entitlement or right to access than anyone else.

• Teaching in large groups that have an adverse impact on the environment and the climbing community at large (and small) does not “encourage a spirit of good fellowship among all lovers of outdoor life”. It angered pretty much every other climber that showed up to climb this weekend.

• Providing advance warning that your organization will essentially “own” a crag for a weekend does not make your actions any less selfish or self-centered. To put it crassly, warning you that I’m going to be an asshole doesn’t make me any less of an asshole.

 

If the Mounties want to live true to their stated goals and really teach people about communing with nature and interacting fairly with those of us who share that environment, they need to teach their students how to properly share use and access to those resources. Otherwise, they set their students up to act in similar manner when they graduate from these programs and go climbing on their own. I toss out the following, non-exhaustive list of suggestions:

 

• Minimize group size. There are many obvious reasons why, and you all know what they are but here are a couple thoughts:

o Having large groups that “hog” routes all day (or multiple days in this instance), pisses off the non-Mounties and essentially splits climbers into two camps – the Mounties and everyone who now hates the Mounties. This cannot possibly foster “good fellowship among all lovers of outdoor life”.

o While I don’t support taking up a route or routes all day, minimizing the total number of routes being used at any given time decreases the impact on other users who have the same access and use rights as the Mounties.

o As an example of the height of ridiculousness I saw this weekend, someone was being taught how to set up an all gear, hanging belay (see above photo). There were 7 or 8 people literally “hanging out” assisting. Excessive? Clearly. Those 7 or 8 other people were on routes that could have been used by others who drove to Tieton specifically to climb them.

• Teach your students that they don’t “own” the crag by example - show them how to properly access busy routes, wait their turn, and be respective of others seeking access to the same climbs.

• Restrict use of routes to times when people are actually using them. If the route is not in use and someone (i.e. non-Mountie) asks to use it, show by example, and step aside and allow access. No one “owns” these routes and no Mountie has any more entitlement to use a route than anyone else.

 

Ultimately, there will always be climbers who act selfishly and cannot or will not show respect for others and share access to our limited resources. I cannot change that. However, when I see a supposedly respected, large, regional organization that takes on the responsibility of teaching new members of our climbing community those exact traits of entitlement and ownership that damage our community, I take exception to it. It is irresponsible to say the least.

 

Donnie Kolb

 

Ps.……While I might have preferred to rant and rave about the “fucking Mounties”, hopefully this is a more appropriate way to foster change in the way they act and present themselves to the community at large. Until they do, I cannot not in good conscience ever recommend anyone become a Mountie.

 

 

Edited June 1, 2009 by DonnieK

[shaoleung]

Wow... good research!

 

As a different perspective on the problem of the mounties I'd like to add some ideas to ponder...

 

The Mounties is a community, non-profit organization that survives only because of all the volunteers. It's hard to be picky about who exactly volunteers and I'd argue that the Mounties has to take what it can get.

 

If more cool folks in the climbing community would step-up and help train the noobs in simple etiquette etc, the community as a whole would be better off.

 

While it's arguable how cool or not I am, I try to help out regularly when I can. There are plenty of solid climbers with good heads in the mounties... and of course the fired-up dickwadd that thinks he's the bee's knees.

 

Be the change you want to see... volunteer and in the end it'll pay off for you.

[Alpinfox]

• Minimize group size.

 

This is the root of damn near all of the problems as far as I can tell.

 

I don't mind working around one group of four bumblies (say, one instructor, one assistant instructor, and two newbs), but 12, 16, 24, etc is ridiculous.

 

The mounties/mazamas/BoAlps all need to reduce their group size and 83% off all problems will go away.

 

 

p.s. If I found an anchor rig left out overnight by any of those groups, it would be in my gear pile now.

[BillA]

:rawk: :brew:

[Bishopp66]

I quit... (just kidding, haha!) I feel you. I too have been shut down by masses of Mounties. Being a member of a smaller branch, I have been kept from climbs/areas I drove specifically for (even though I was a member). But on the other hand, I've also been involved with trips and we went WAY out of our way to accomidate other climbers on routes we were using.

Edited June 1, 2009 by Bishopp66

[letsroll]

leaving ropes up over night is not cool. Get there early and pull that sucker or heck use the ropes and Top Rope it all and when they walk up thank them for leaving the ropes out for everybody to use

 

It does seem group size is getting a lot more press lately. I am a mazama and helped out on the rock. If people are waiting for a route I will be the first to pull the rope for them or let them use the route between our climbers. Not being accomidative is BS.

[Gary_Yngve]

If you asked about an unused rope on a route, you were given the standard “someone is just about to climb that” routine.

 

In an ideal world, they'd offer. Do you think you were sufficiently assertive? I think you had every right to pull one of their ropes and climb.

[Toast]

I was there on Saturday, and yes we occupied five of the easy routes centered around the Western Front. Generally, if you ask to climb a route, we will yield and pull our top ropes if we don’t have climbers on it. The gear left up top was bad on our part. That won’t happen again.

 

As far as impact, we run the Royal Columns trip once a year. We purposely shrunk our class size in half a few years ago to reduce impact. We choose different crags for the four outings that comprise this class so we’re not tying up the same routes over four weekends. We do our best to try to coordinate with other programs so we don’t have multiple large parties at the same crag on the same weekends.

 

Yes, we do impact the crag with our presence. There isn’t a good way around that. Our objective is to introduce lead climbing skills and anchor fundamentals to 8 – 10 students per year. Beyond this class, we don’t really encourage large groups. Most of our Intermediate climbs will be in pairs or parties up to four.

 

For all the nuisance we cause, I still think we run a quality program.

 

Tony Tsuboi

Everett Mountaineers

Intermediate Climbing Programs

[Choada_Boy]

Mob Rules.

[Pete_H]

they need to teach their students how to properly share use and access to those resources. Otherwise, they set their students up to act in similar manner when they graduate from these programs and go climbing on their own.

 

I bet not one instructor taught the students to stash cold beer in the river either. What sort of example are they setting?

[Lowell_Skoog]

One idea you might not have considered - join the Mountaineers and get their monthly newsletter, then consult the newsletter before you head out to avoid the locations where they are having field trips. I used to do this when I was climbing more often in the places where they go.

 

I agree that climbing classes should be kept small and they should be responsive to other users in the area. But hey, climbing classes are a fact of life in the Northwest and they have been for decades. Smart climbers learn to work around them.

 

[LostCamKenny]

One idea you might not have considered - join the Mountaineers and get their monthly newsletter, then consult the newsletter before you head out to avoid the locations where they are having field trips. I used to do this when I was climbing more often in the places where they go.

 

I agree that climbing classes should be kept small and they should be responsive to other users in the area. But hey, climbing classes are a fact of life in the Northwest and they have been for decades. Smart climbers learn to work around them.

 

Agreed. And in addition, Portland runs into this problem with a few of its local crags and if you plan to go out on a saturday or sunday you might find yourself having been sandbagged by a bunch of toproppers that were there since daybreak! Whatever, I guess. But the crags in Portland do not (to the best of my knowledge) have a reservation list and everything is first come, first served. It may seem selfish but one wouldn't think so if they beat the classes and stayed all day in one spot working a route!

[AlpineK]

Looking back at old photos of Mounty events the group has made some major changes to how they conduct the climbing courses.

 

I was in the Mounties basic class in the 70s then went part way through their Intermediate program. Back then I remember crevasse rescue classes on the Nisqually Glacier that involved 2 large buses of students taking part in the class. The basic experience climbs were often groups of 12.

 

From everything I've seen recently they've made major improvements over my experiences. Yes they need to do more to improve everybody's experience in the mountains/crags, but with a large group with so much history instant changes are unlikely.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

One idea you might not have considered - join the Mountaineers and get their monthly newsletter, then consult the newsletter before you head out to avoid the locations where they are having field trips. I used to do this when I was climbing more often in the places where they go.

 

 

A lot of Mounties do this as well - when they go out on private trips. :-)

[JayB]

I was there on Saturday, and yes we occupied five of the easy routes centered around the Western Front. Generally, if you ask to climb a route, we will yield and pull our top ropes if we don’t have climbers on it. The gear left up top was bad on our part. That won’t happen again.

 

As far as impact, we run the Royal Columns trip once a year. We purposely shrunk our class size in half a few years ago to reduce impact. We choose different crags for the four outings that comprise this class so we’re not tying up the same routes over four weekends. We do our best to try to coordinate with other programs so we don’t have multiple large parties at the same crag on the same weekends.

 

Yes, we do impact the crag with our presence. There isn’t a good way around that. Our objective is to introduce lead climbing skills and anchor fundamentals to 8 – 10 students per year. Beyond this class, we don’t really encourage large groups. Most of our Intermediate climbs will be in pairs or parties up to four.

 

For all the nuisance we cause, I still think we run a quality program.

 

Tony Tsuboi

Everett Mountaineers

Intermediate Climbing Programs

 

I'll just chime in and say that I ran into Tony and his crew at the columns a few years ago, and had a totally different experience. No problem working it out on lines that his group and ours wanted to climb, nice attitudes all around, etc.

 

 

[sobo]

I'll just chime in and say that I ran into Tony and his crew at the columns a few years ago, and had a totally different experience. No problem working it out on lines that his group and ours wanted to climb, nice attitudes all around, etc.

A few years back when I still lived in Yakima, I, too, ran into Tony & crew at the Royal Columns and my experience was much like yours, Jay. Nice attitudes were exhibited by all involved. And for the record, I am not a Mountie, so that didn't give me any special privileges.

 

...One of the great things about Tieton in particular is the concentration and quality of the easy and moderate routes. It’s a place to come and cut your teeth leading trad on real cracks. For that reason, many of us flock to Tieton so we can improve our skill set and take those skills into the broader environment. For the same reason the Mounties teach classes at Tieton. However, when the Mountie crew basically hogs the entire beginner area for an entire weekend, they stop living up to their stated mission. Those of us who showed up this weekend to cut our respective teeth were completely prevented from accessing many of the routes we specifically came to climb...

DonnieK-

First off, while I can empathize with you for having lost your opportunity to hit a few of the Royal Columns classics that weekend, the Tieton is a huge area and chock full of other climbing venues. Just a mile up the road is The Bend with many easy and moderate trad leads to cut your teeth on, too, ya know.

 

Secondly, I consider it a personal favor to me when a large climbing organization makes a public announcement that there will be a n00bfest at a particular crag on a particular date. I make alternate destination arrangements and it's all good. Everybody wins. You should try it.

[Alpinfox]

the Tieton is a huge area and chock full of other climbing venues. Just a mile up the road is The Bend with many easy and moderate trad leads to cut your teeth on, too, ya know.

 

[sarcasm]yes, it's ok for a huge group to overrun all the best easy climbs at a crag and make things unpleasant/impossible for everyone else not in their club, because there are other, shittier, climbs elsewhere in the area [/sarcasm]

[sobo]

the Tieton is a huge area and chock full of other climbing venues. Just a mile up the road is The Bend with many easy and moderate trad leads to cut your teeth on, too, ya know.

 

[sarcasm]yes, it's ok for a huge group to overrun all the best easy climbs at a crag and make things unpleasant/impossible for everyone else not in their club, because there are other, shittier, climbs elsewhere in the area [/sarcasm]

I can understand your sarcasm, Pax, and also find it humorous. I'm not excusing the Mounties for hogging routes/crags, but come on, how many times have we all been chased off the rock by a herd of n00bs in our careers? Weren't we all once n00bs? If you've been climbing long enough, getting rockblocked (not to be confused with cockblocked ) is something that we've experienced, we learn from it, and move on. It's one of the many reasons I never climb at Smith anymore. Climbing there is like living in Mumbai. Personally, I solve the issue for myself by not climbing at a location where I suspect that I will have to wait (very long) to get on a route. That's just my way of climbing.

[olyclimber]

thats the wrong attitude alpinfox. you should be proud to climb dirty, unpopular routes...because they are in fact gems that the hoards have not discovered yet. you should learn to revel in exclusivity and eliteness. This works well in pretty much all diciplines, fyi.

[sobo]

you should learn to revel in exclusivity and eliteness.

What was it that rob said a few weeks back??

"My awesomeness springs from a deep well of humility."

Classic.

[tomtom]

I don’t. And from what I saw this weekend I wouldn’t recommend it to you either…..

There are 10,000 members in the Mountaineers in 7 branches hosting around 75 events each weekend. Judging all of the programs in the entire club by one experience is a little narrow minded.

[ilookeddown]

[olyclimber]

 

this is the new wall as Stone Gardens right? Cool! I'll have to get in there and try it out.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

the Tieton is a huge area and chock full of other climbing venues. Just a mile up the road is The Bend with many easy and moderate trad leads to cut your teeth on, too, ya know.

 

[sarcasm]yes, it's ok for a huge group to overrun all the best easy climbs at a crag and make things unpleasant/impossible for everyone else not in their club, because there are other, shittier, climbs elsewhere in the area [/sarcasm]

 

Yeah, Ed's jam is so shitty

[Bug]

 

Looks like the problem could be reduced by half simply by yelling "OFF BELAY!!!"

 

I have also bee angrily discouraged from climbing a route that was obviously idle for a long time. Another guy walked up and straightened it out as I just proceeded to climb.

But to say "don't judge the Mounties by one experience" is denying my basic humanity. I have as much right to bitch as they do to hog a route(s).

Organizations of all kinds are judged by the experience of each judge. In retail the rule of thumb is "you can help a customer 10 times in a row with excellent service but screw up just once and they will deem your service as poor"

Mounties should visit this idea as an intro to common decency/ climbing.

Rats everywhere.