LostCamKenny

Damn, I knew I should have gone with you.

And this is the problem, brutha.

i wish i'd done something as cool as this.... Does The Nose not count??

Just in case anyone needs a little light reading this evening.. And in case your chums in WA State Parks were curious about your previous conservation strategies, here's a non-slanderous update for them, courtesy of the Chicago Tribune archives, May 2nd, 1978!

Actually, my answers are the only straight answers to be had here about Beacon with respect to the closure. That's because you guys ALWAYS start with the end premise and belief that there is no legal or legitimate basis for the closure and have repeatedly attempted to bulldog your way backwards from there searching for anything and anyone to support your position - a position which has never changed from 1996 to today. And because you start with that end in mind you are constantly twisting every single aspect of any discussion of the closure to fit your incontestable and unshakable preset belief. And at every turn you've shown again and again that it's all us versus them, we're victims, they're the oppressive 'man' and that's the way it has to be. And until Bill stepped up a couple of months ago all of your actions have been adversarial and publicly dishonest with respect to what you really believe. Seriously? I mean FUCKING SERIOUSLY? I was the moderate local who finally decided to dig into the whole closure business after a listening to a decade of endless and ceaseless whining. I did speak up and I did get active. I put on my objective journalist hat and interviewed every single human involved with the '96 closure. I started to learn the laws, policy and the biology around the peregrines and the closure. I then tried to convince the lot of you that the only way forward was to learn to monitor, learn the law and policy and to re-establish a trusted working relationships with the BRSP, WSP and WDFW. That only after those relationships were mended and trust restored could the topic of the closure even be reasonably broached. The result? Complete and utter rejection of the very idea on all fronts. Opdycke would have absolutely none of it and you guys swallowed his whole us vs. them spiel hook-line-and-sinker as a frigging identity / anthem and have been parroting that party line ever since, year in, year out. It wasn't till Adam came along who was naive to the issues and history that you guys used him to make your big BRCA push with ONE, SINGULAR INTENT IN MIND to be pursued at any and all cost. The result - a completely adversarial push focused 110% on the closure. The outcome - predictable as rain in Oregon - you continually pissed off the very people who would have to say yes to any change in the closure. And moderates - dude, like fucking dude - MODERATES??? You and your bros ARE the extreme: a) totally impervious to reason, b) unwilling to give up your victim status, c) unwilling to learn the law, policy, people, monitoring or biology. Fucking hell, you wouldn't know a frigging moderate if one fell on you. My foul attitude comes from a decade of dealing with you clowns and having to suffer through watching you shooting yourselves in the foot again and again and wondering why nothing changes. That, and your basic slander and lies directed my way and also from understanding that what you folks say in public and what you really believe are about as close together as the Earth and Mars - disingenuous, dishonest and not fooling a single person who matters relative to the closure. And even in this posting here you are still starting with your unswerving and never changing position on the closure. It's always the same deal - we just have to find the right front man, the right organization, the right scientist, the right legislator, or the right committee to convince those frigging assholes just how seriously wrong they are and how incredibly unfair it all is. I.E. - nothing whatsoever has changed other than now instead of me or Adam, you have Bill on the hot seat. All the best to him given you folks haven't changed your minds, attitudes or beliefs one frigging shred and never will. And good luck with all that, because it's going to be the same loser CC discussion over the anguish of the 2025 seasonal closure if you keep on keep on the way you have been and are going. [ P.S. And yep, SALES AND POLITICS 101: DON'T ENDLESSLY PISS OFF THE VERY PEOPLE YOU NEED TO SAY YES - it just doesn't get simpler than that and if that's going over your head or otherwise fails to sink in then you're too fucking stupid for words. ] :kisss: Settle down, baldy.. We all know you like to blowhard and get all worked up about this.. I would feel terrible if this caused you another stone that needed passing.

Andrew, nothing personal, but when was the last time you climbed at Beacon? It wasn't too long ago, because I know you were in town fairly recently, though I can't quite recall if you climbed. I was disappointed when I heard you were around and I didn't get to climb with you. Regardless, it is my opinion that one is not necessarily "a local for life" simply because of a strong association with the place pre-closure. Once one spends a fair amount of time away, doesn't that make one non-local, at least to some degree? Ask Jim this question and he'll immediately say that a "local" such as yourself is always a local and always allowed to speak for the community, based on your climbing efforts of the past. Moreover, Jim will also insist that there is a set amount of distance one must climb at beacon per month to be considered local. Ask Adam this question and he'll give you the opposing response, centering on working through a process with a cross section of voices that speak for a larger group (Ask JH this question and you'll have to read 14 pages on politics/sales 101 before you even get a straight answer - if you get a straight answer). The point I'm getting at is that the extremes are what are really affecting this issue, and we have very few moderates speaking up (I mean seriously speaking up and getting active) who can agree that a balance is best. This is true in the debate of who is a local, as well as the entire access issue which ridiculously closes the rock - no middle ground, or at least the extremists are the loudest voices. And this is why we've never seen a change in the access policy - because the extremists clash and cancel each other out, leaving a pathetically small moderate group that is nearly voiceless, and certainly powerless, to make any changes in the wake. We need the moderates to start stepping up if we ever want to see any changes. Actions speak much louder than empty bureaucratic statements and promises. Randy Kline may be driving this thing forward with a fresh new set of ideas and plans to suggest, but as long as our extremist friends insist on holding staunchly to their guns we will never climb at beacon in the spring. So far Randy Kline has said a lot of things, and showed us nothing except for the same song and dance - par for this course - but I have faith that the committee can get some changes made, even with Jim and Healey's foul attitudes. So I guess what I really want to know is what qualifies one as a local? I've never climbed El Cap, so does that disqualify me, or does my decade of continuous daily attendance during the majority of the year (not just the open season, but the year!) allow me to slide in there?? And yes, Adam has joined me on close to 50% of the time in the years that he has lived in the area, and that is accounting for only the times he's climbed with me; he gets out with many others too. Btw, Jamie Peterson was a local at beacon way back in the day, around the time of Jim's major sending days, so Bill is not the only "local" if Adam doesn't get the vote as one. Karen, yeah I see her out there periodically but not every week, though in past years I have seen her slightly more frequently.. Ally, well, I know she's climbed beacon at least once, but I haven't seen her out, though she travels frequently to other venues to climb - does that make her an unqualified voice?? And who, honestly, should be making that call??? Just sayin. And as far as the AAC, WCC and AF involvement in the committee, those members are leading by proxy because that is how they must lead, as voices of the much larger climbing community in general. Only two members of that section of the committee have climbed at beacon, but all are good climbers, perfectly capable of representing other climbers. I suppose if I were forced to spell out a definition of a local, it would be one who lives in the area (the greater Portland metro area and the western gorge, just to be clear) and climbs beacon on a regular basis, to mean at least weekly. It's such an arbitrary definition to make, but the human animal likes the definite and this is as definitive as I can make it without purposely offending someone who may consider themselves "local" based on their own criteria. I dunno... The water is just soooo muddy; the forest is too thick to see the trees; the elephant in the middle of the room matches the wallpaper... So many opinions, none of them voiced loudly enough - except the wrong ones.

...as does erosion of organic matter which surrounds giant blocks above the main climbing areas.

Merely pointing out that one's options are simple to decipher in this messy thread: clip or don't clip. If I were to come upon a pin that I could pull out with my fingers and thus knew it would do no good to clip it, then I wouldn't even bother wasting the time thinking about it and I would do what I could to finish it out. Probably why I haven't felt the need to lead that one yet(I would also booty the pin and tell all ya mofos about it too). I did talk to JO about it and he said that the best alternative if the pin couldn't be re-set would be to slap in the bolt in its place (I was surprised to hear that come out of his mouth). I'm all for avoiding dangerous runouts at the crags too: really there is no need for such risky shenanigans in this setting, regardless of how hardman one might think it will make them. Being a hardman doesn't come from running it out or climbing the upper-end grades (although the latter is more indicative of a hard core climber); it comes from the soul. I don't need to climb 5.13 to feel like I am tough guy because I think that regardless of our individual ability levels we are all hardmen by just getting out and doing what 95% of the rest of the human population won't do. Clip or don't clip. That's my stance. But one will pay the price if it goes sideways. That is undeniable.

Don't trust em? Don't clip em. There. That was easy.

In business, as in life, it helps to not be an asshole.

Monday the 14th

Kirk, your words on this thread surprise me a little, though I am certain there was a lot of humor and joking in your posting. Don't get me wrong, I know you are getting out there and all, and probably on some pretty challenging terrain, but I can't help thinking that your view on this is a little narrow. Since we have climbed together in the past I'm sure you won't take this the wrong way or anything but I simply cannot agree with your view when you say "what technical portion" when speaking of the south side of Mt Hood. And I am fully aware that you have done harder. But please consider the following: What exactly does the word "technical" mean? Depending on the person defining the word you could come up with many different responses. Here is what I am thinking, built on my experience and studies of the mountaineering art. IMO (and if one reads "Climbing Ice" by the father of American Ice Climbing Yvon Chouinard then one might agree with me) climbing snow and ice requires quite a different set of "techniques" than just hiking over bare or even varied, rubbly terrain. It is not instinctive to hike up snow/ice slopes of low or moderate angles and when the angles become moderate, steep, extremely steep, or vertical and overhanging, the techniques change fairly dramatically. Anyone who has slogged up a snow/ice slope in crampons has to admit that it takes a little more than just walking to get there without issue - I challenge anyone who questions me on this to try walking in crampons the same way they would walk down the street, and then count the cuts they have in their pants, gaiters and calves. It takes a little bit of technique to correctly walk in crampons, and even without crampons it takes a bit of technique (albeit not terribly difficult technique) to ascend snow and ice slopes. And I'm not even talking about using an ice axe yet! Prior to the invention of crampons steps had to be cut in ice to ascend - even on low to moderate angle slopes (Mt Blanc's FA waaaaay back when is proof enough of this. Those climbers didn't have crampons so they had to develop techniques to ascend the ice). Climbing anything requires vast knowledge of the equipment needed to accomplish the climb. If the tools needed are cams and stoppers then there is a certain amount of "technique" required to correctly use them to ascend. If the equipment is ice screws, two tools, crampons and a rope then there is a certain amount of "technique" required to ascend. And if the tools needed are simply a pair of crampons (OR NOT) and an ice axe then there is still a certain amount of "technique" to using the ice axe and crampons correctly and safely. When something requires "technique" then it IS technical, whether it is the south side of Mt Hood or The Nose on El Cap. I will agree that the south side of Mt Hood is not a terribly difficult or technical route. But I would never say that there is no technique required to climb it - that would be quite foolhardy in my opinion. And while the technical portion of the route is quite short compared to the approach to it, it still requires a bit of technique. Coming down the old chute, though not too bad in a good snow year, still can require careful footing. And in a low snow year that chute can be nearly 45 degrees and icy - steeper at the top of it. In the latter condition there is a fair bit of technique required to not slide down to the hot rocks or Illumination Saddle. Again, not terribly difficult technique, but all the same, it is no walk down. VegasJoe, i hope your climb went safely and that the technical 300 feet of the route treated you to a grand adventure. It did for me a few times and it is likely to again in the future regardless of how experienced I become. KirkW is quite experienced, himself, and though he might come across a certain way here believe me when I say that he is just like the rest of us: climbing using many techniques. And techniques are technical. There. That's my 2 cents. Or more like 10 bucks.

Its a fun link up to continue up this after doing Ripper. Makes for alomst an actual pitch. Watch the prominent pointed hold above the crux.... it's barely attached(Let me specify: the first pointed hold above the crux). Finishing up on Orion makes an already worthwhile variation even more worthwhile.

All valid points... Thank you Jon! More input is definitely needed

The break-ins continue... Two more fresh piles of glass... Get the word out: DONT LEAVE ANYTHING VISIBLE IN YOUR CARS! And if you are a victim, REPORT IT!

Or just use the Kamakaze anchors to top rope May Day and Kamakaze

A #3 Camelot protects just to the left of the chopped bolt. Who cares that much about that bolt anyway?!? Big deal. Go climb it and forget about the silly bolt.

So just to get the word out as early as possible - that is, if you didn't know this about Ozone already - the theives are out again! There have been two smash-and-grab style break-ins just in the past week at the west end parking lot. Can't say exactly who were victims of this so I don't know what was stolen. It is highly advisable to not leave anything valuable in your vehicle and if you do make certain it is hidden and not in sight. This is not the first time this has occurred along highway 14 and it happens. Watch over your stuff as carefully as you can. If you see vehicles or people in the parking area that appear out of place, considering what we do here, make a note about it and spread the word. Wouldn't be a bad idea to let the sheriff's dept. and the State Police know as well. With a little extra vigilance maybe these incidents can be minimized. Be safe. Have fun.