Ethics, dropping gear and micro-fractures

[shaoleung]

In the dozen or so years I've been climbing, there are a couple of things I always held true, without question. One of those things is that if I drop someone's gear from a climb, then I have to replace it. Thankfully I have never dropped someone else's gear and until recently, no-one I've climbed with has dropped mine.

 

About a week ago one of my climbing partners dropped a relatively new, lightweight, locking biner from about 60 feet. It bounced down the slab face to the ground.

 

He offered a much older (could it have been REI brand?) and heavier biner as a replacement. I laughed and said, "No thanks, you can get a replacement at Second Ascent."

 

My truth was called into question based on a handful of studies that suggest micro-fractures do not in fact reduce the integrity of biners. I responded, "Then you can use the one you dropped and I'll take a new one."

 

What is the right thing to do? Is there consensus on this one?

[billcoe]

You're on the money.

 

However, I let my buddies slide all the time cause I usually have more money and gear than them. One time my friend Dave tossed a rock off the route, didn't get it out far enough from the cliff, dropped it on my rope and destroyed it. I told him don't worry it's OK, I had another rope and he was in college, paying his own way working 2 jobs to do it.

 

9+ years later he shows up at my door with a brand new one. I say "What's this", and he tells me the story which I had totally forgotten about. "No, you don't have to do this Dave", here , you use it".

 

Then he told me how much money he was making and how HE NEEDED TO REPAY THIS DEBT AND HE HAD BEEN THINKING OF IT FOR THE LAST 9 YEARS, etc etc . WOW! He had a job paying a HUGE salary, he told me how much he was making, I was shocked that people made that much money.

 

That happened @15-18 years ago and I still climb with Dave when he's around.

 

 

I kept the rope then, thanked him profusely for his generosity, and we went climbing.

[Peter_Puget]

Jeesh...dropping gear happens all the time...someone drops one of my 'biners I say forget about it....I've had ropes chopped and chopped partners ropes and we just moved on....in general keeping a balance sheet on gear is BS..of course there are exceptions depending on circumstances but a certain small loss level is to be expected....over time losses tend to even out....of course if you insist on climbing with your rack and I am poor I say you eat the loss.

 

So Bill if we are climbing and I bumble a 'biner youre really going to expect me to buy you a new one? Are you even going to care?

 

BTW I doubt the fall has significantly damaged your 'biner.

[denalidave]

If I were to drop someone else's gear, I would feel obliged to replace it, or at least offer to replace it. If someone drops my gear, I would let it slide. So far, I have been fortunate enough to only drop my own gear.

[montypiton]

When gear gets trashed on a climb (dropped, crushed, eaten by a critter, etc) I work it out with my partner according to the situation. Sometimes, I offer to pay for his/her gear. Sometimes, he/she offers to pay for mine. Sometimes, we split. Sometimes, we just blow it off. Do you pay your partner when he/she leaves a rappel sling/ring, or a back-off piece from his/her supply? Exit anchors have been a significant source of gear attrition during my 40+ years climbing, and I've never kept score... Would you pay a partner's medical expenses if he/she were injured climbing on your rack?

As a rule, I prefer to climb with easy-going, flexible, undemanding partners...

[Crillz]

A wire gate dropped 60' doesn't need to be replaced anyway. Is this a joke?

 

I think partners should only be accountable if they do something stupid to lose the gear. Honest mistakes/accidents are going to happen - do you want to be put through the ringer when you do something stupid?

[sobo]

I pretty much have to agree with what everyone else has said here. I don't keep track of who's to blame or play the "my shit/their shit" game. I've blown up a few partners' cams and/or fixed their gear on routes in long leader falls, and they've fixed several of my pieces and/or blown up my cams as well over the years. The way I figure it, we're in it together: if gear gets lost/dropped/broken/left as bailers/rendered unusable, that's all part of the game. Some of these events make for great stories later.

 

But like Crillz said, if they do something [really] stupid to cause a loss, well then that's very different. I don't think an event like what Bill related above qualifies as "really stupid", but it was rather unfortunate. I would only hope that I would be so magnanimous as Bill was in the "blowing off" of the incident.

 

And were it me who did the deed, I would like to believe that I would be so philanthropic as to behave as Dave did and "force" the replacement upon my partner, even if it was many years later.

[willstrickland]

Monty nails it. Lighten up Francis.

 

that said, I dropped a partner's cam from 7 pitches up this winter. It was pretty jacked up...squashed lobe, bent stem, partially cut sling. Pretty standard deal, cleaned the piece thought I had it clipped to a gear loop but missed. 100% my fault and avoidable. Since that was our last trip together for the season, I loaned him one of mine until he could pro-deal a new one which I then paid him back for, he sent me my loaner back and everything is groovy. The biner on the cam was also jacked and I offered to cover a new one of those too, but being the good partner he is, he ate the biner cost.

 

It all works out in the end.

 

 

[eldiente]

I've noticed with the increase cost in gas I pay a lot less attention to lost gear. What's a few slings and some bienrs compared to $100 in gas you just spent to drive to the crag? I don't even think about it unless it was something really dumb, like dropping a cam, or expensive like having to to leave a bunch of gear in a retreat. But then again I'm a little odd as I never keep track of of my gear and don't stress if a few of my pieces end up on my partners rack.

[sobo]

...unless it was something really dumb, like dropping a cam...

Not all dropping of cams is really dumb. Sometimes, shit just happens.

 

...or expensive like having to to leave a bunch of gear in a retreat...

I don't ask for replacement in such instances. Usually, if it's that major of a retreat that it is eating up shitloads of gear, then I'm generally pretty fucking happy just to be back on terra firma with my ass still attached to the rest of me when it's all over and done with to worry about gear replacement costs.

 

But then again I'm a little odd as I never keep track of of my gear and don't stress if a few of my pieces end up on my partners rack.

Exactly.

[Rad]

Which is more important, the partnership or the gear? Think about it before chewing out your partner over a $6 biner.

 

 

 

[canadug]

I think a chill pill is in order. If you need me to write you a prescription I'll do it for FREE.

[billcoe]

...I never keep track of of my gear and don't stress if a few of my pieces end up on my partners rack.

 

Schweet, if we ever climb together lets use your rack Nate!

 

Good point there on the price of gas though. If I was broke I'm sure I'd look at it differently. Folks should always offer to replace it in my view, and the partner can be magnanimous if they want based on their attitude, individual finances and gear stock or what the piece was or it's age and condition. Haven't dropped anything that wasn't mine for a long time as I usually use my rack anyway, and I don't stress when someone else drops my stuff cause it happens so rarely.

 

Ujahn led a pitch and way overcammed a brand new #4 4th gen Camalot: stuck solid in one of the Epinephrine chimney spots last time we did it. He was saying several times "I knew I overcammed it, I'll get you a new one" and I was saying each time "Nah, it's OK" as I was working on it for 15-20 min. Finally I gave up, maintaining that it was OK to leave if necessary, assuring him he didn't have to replace anything and lowered him down anyway for a shot and 10 min later -POP! out she finally came.

 

Now my piece looks like it's been used- but isn't beat up, and for that I'm grateful to the man.

 

BTW; the new Metolius 4 cams units, the Mastercams, look like they get stuck easier than any other cam out there. (IMO). Joseph got one stuck solid on a new route, theres one stuck in Cruisemaster, and I almost stuck the blue in Young Warriors last Sunday as well. (Lotta work for my second to get out).

[eldiente]

...I never keep track of of my gear and don't stress if a few of my pieces end up on my partners rack.

 

Schweet, if we ever climb together lets use your rack Nate!

 

Ha! Sure why not. I might be a tad lazy, but nothing is worse then coming down after a long route and having your partner badger you with "well I know I have six wire gates and now I only have five, where is it?" I don't try to lose gear, but life is way too short to worry about it. I figure it will eventually all even out when I find the odd piece of gear in my bag that doesn't belong to me.

 

Stuck cams are another matter. It happens to everyone, but if you botched it up I really think you should offer to replace the cam if it isn't yours. Think of it as a penalty for placing bad pro. I've lost a few cams just because I pussed out and forced a cam into a spot where it didn't need to be. I had to buy new ones.

 

Yeah and those master cams do seem to get stuck. I almost lost one of mine the other day on Stuart and I swear it was placed gently.

 

-Nate

[Choada_Boy]

My partners steal my gear all the time and I don't give a shit.

[billcoe]

My partners steal my gear all the time and I don't give a shit.

 

Love that, come along with Eldiente and me sometime then, your racks.

[Hayduke]

I recently had a partner drop a BD spectra sling with two nutrinos on it. $25 worth of gear gone in a mote. At first I was pissed, but then I remembered going fishing with him last summer and i lost two of his spinners. It all evens out.

 

What sucks is the tranny went out in his Eurovan while driving back from the valley. The shop quoted him $6500. So If I had asked him to pay me for the slings and biners he dropped, then should he have the right to ask me to split the cost of his tranny? Ouch, no... that's why I drive a Toyota and not a VW.

 

 

 

[Off_White]

I prefer to climb with easy-going, flexible, undemanding partners...

 

Bingo! As a side note, this handy tip pretty much makes everything about climbing more fun.

[JayB]

Which is more important, the partnership or the gear? Think about it before chewing out your partner over a $6 biner.

 

 

 

Word.

 

[Dane]

Started an ice climb this winter with 8 new Grivel Helix screws. First belay I though....hummmm, must have brought 7 and not 8 screws.

 

My new partner said he had never dropped anything, anywhere. Good enough for me.

 

Top of the 2nd pitch (crux) I had 5 screws, besides the monatary loss I was a bit pissed since I was doing all the leading and we had another 3 pitches to go. 5 screws is getting a bit thin in my mind on hard ice. Pitches started getting really short at that point with tools for the top rope belay.

 

Went back in the morning and picked up one of the dropped screws we spotted rapping off. Basically wasted a day dicking around because of it.

 

We ended up splitting the cost of the other two dropped screws.

 

If it had been me dropping the gear, I'd simply apologized and paid (in full) to replace the gear I'd dropped.

 

Lost, dropped, trashed and found a lot of gear over the years. Generally no one cares either way. If it is a long time partner we just make it up with dinner, beers or gas what ever is easy.

 

 

[A2THEK]

I think it shows good style to offer replacement of a piece you overcammed & stuck or dropped, although I wouldnt demand it, cause you know there's always a sacrifice to the mountain gods. As far as using dropped gear, how much do you value your life? If I gotta ask if it's still good, I replace the piece in question. I dont worry about left nuts & rap slings, that's just part of the game. Doesn't mean I wont give my buddy a load of crap if he's the butterfingers of the day, haha.

[Alpinsanity]

I loaned my partner a pair of lightweight shell pants.

He proceeded to shred the side of the leg open with his crampon.

Missed his skin, fortunately.

Taped it up for the rest of the trip, and when we got back, offered me a down vest as compensation.

Since he had two of them, I abliged.

 

I think the barter/trade system works well for these situations.

Whatever a person has to offer.

And, if they have nothing, well then that's okay too.

The partnership is always worth more than the gear.

[shaoleung]

Good points... we worked it out pretty much on the gist of the post. He offered to buy a new one, I said not to worry about it. He bought beer. I paid for gas. Ahhh... all's well that ends well.

 

I am surprised to hear so many people saying they don't care about losing gear. I need to find a better job.

[olyclimber]

i don't climb with anyone unless they agree to my gear dropping ethics

[olyclimber]

 

BTW; the new Metolius 4 cams units, the Mastercams, look like they get stuck easier than any other cam out there. (IMO). Joseph got one stuck solid on a new route, theres one stuck in Cruisemaster, and I almost stuck the blue in Young Warriors last Sunday as well. (Lotta work for my second to get out).

 

what about the design results in them getting stuck more often?