Did you summit?

[Bronco]

http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13201215692

Pretty good article on how many people are actually reaching the true summit of 8,000 meter peaks. I think it's pretty common in the Cascades as well.  I personally have reached the crater on Rainier and Helens but not bothered to slog to the actual high point of the rim.  Does it count?  

I've read some TR's for Challenger in particular where the party claims to have bagged the peak but admit they didn't climb the summit block, usually due to weather. Should that count since they didn't climb the technical part of that peak?  I guess I can't criticize anyone since I haven't literally summited Rainier or Helens.  

How about Luna?  I haven't attempted Luna yet but understand most folks do not make the traverse to the actual summit (at least according to Juan Sharp).  What other peaks are accepted as a successful climb without actually touching the summit?

 

Edited March 1, 2021 by Bronco
Punctuation

[JasonG]

1 hour ago, Bronco said:

What other peaks are accepted as a successful climb without actually touching the summit.

There are none! No summit, no party.

[olyclimber]

The point and sole purpose of mountain climbing is to reach the peak, the true apex. Only then is the mission successful. All else should be considered failure and should be mocked and ridiculed.

[genepires]

The only marker for a successful climb is if everyone gets home without a need for medical assistance.  Fuck actual summits.  Was it fun?  Success.

 

[bedellympian]

I agree with Jason that if you don't touch the summit you did not climb the peak. I also agree with Gene that if you get home safe and have fun that is more important. 

I will add that if you're going to spray about your trips just be honest about what you did and don't try to couch it in a way that implies something other than the truth.

I got within spitting distance of an unnamed summit in India a couple years ago soloing, certainly closer than the Challenger scenario you mentioned. I turned around when I got to a loose rock band just below the top. I did not summit, I did not climb the peak. I accomplished everything I wanted to by staying safe, having fun and testing my body at altitude. 

If you need to hide the truth to portray a certain outcome then your ego is much too involved and you should probably do some serious self-reflection. 

 

[nonbasketless]

Did you have fun? Then you had fun! Go you!

Did you get to the highest point? Then you summited! Go you!

Ideally I do both. I think the first one is a more noble pursuit, but to confuse them is silly and dishonest (likely with others and self).

 

[JasonG]

1 hour ago, bedellympian said:

just be honest about what you did and don't try to couch it in a way that implies something other than the truth.

This, for so much in life.  Guile is lame.

[Rad]

If you didn't spray about your ass-scent on social media with a professionally edited drone video and product placements then you're not going to land sponsors. No sponsors = no money = no lovin'.  Summits and fun are irrelevant to the equation.

[montypiton]

Rad has a point.  The colleagues I know who make the biggest scene about summit-honesty-ethics, etc etc are those who have money at stake.  I've played the sponsorship game and its a pain in the ass - gets in the way of the fun I'm tryin' to have.  Sponsored climbs have cost me friendships and climbing partners.  The summit is merely an excuse to jump on the route.   The journey is where the action is.  The destination is just the excuse to  begin the journey.

-Haireball

[Rad]

I've certainly never been sponsored, so I don't speak from experience there.

My thoughts are captured in this tidbit I put in a CC TR for Challenger

"On the last day of our trip, we encountered novice hikers and experienced climbers below Hannegan Pass who all asked if we successfully made it to the Challenger summit. They offered congratulations when we told them we did. This felt weird because our summit day was technically, mentally, and physically less challenging than many other parts of our trip. The greatest rewards lay in overcoming the various challenges we encountered along the way, spending time with a close friend, and experiencing nature on its own terms."

[JasonG]

1 hour ago, Rad said:

experiencing nature on its own terms.

This sounds so pleasant!

[ScaredSilly]

Good article ... basically it comes down to being honest if you are going to boast. With the need to claim one's frame (aka mouth masturbation) the boasting becomes bloated.

The first time I "summited" on Rainier, we reached the summit crater but not Columbia Crest. When we were checking out with the rangers they asked if we summited. We said no and that we had only reached the summit crater. The ranger just laughed and said that was where most people stopped and that we had summited. We felt slightly better about our ascent. The next time I "summited" on Rainier I was damn well going make sure I really reached the summit and walked around whole summit crater. Since then there has been only one ascent on Rainier where we finished the route but did not reach one of the three high points.

[Stefan]

Sounds like all a bit verbal language.

Climbing a peak does not necessarily mean you summitted.  You can climb a route on peak and not touch the summit.  I would still consider climbing a route... "climbing a peak".

If you want to "summit" then you actually need to touch the top of the peak.

My two cents aint worth a nickel.

[bedellympian]

2 hours ago, Stefan said:

Sounds like all a bit verbal language.

Climbing a peak does not necessarily mean you summitted.  You can climb a route on peak and not touch the summit.  I would still consider climbing a route... "climbing a peak".

If you want to "summit" then you actually need to touch the top of the peak.

Peak and summit are synonyms. Saying you climbed the peak, regardless of your thoughts, is mis-communicating what you did. Just say you "climbed the route". It's more descriptive of what you did and does not mention a peak or summit, so no confusion. 

[yesican]

All responses pertain to outward representations made by climbers to other parties. Interesting.

At 55, I can tell you from experience that the self-aggrandizing trait of humanity was less common before social media gave everyone a free platform from which to paint themselves for everyone else.

*****

Why climb?

Is the fundamental goal to satisfy an inner drive, or put on an outward show?

A mountaineer inwardly craves a summit and would deny him or herself that objective only if safety required it.

Perhaps the distinction between climbers and mountaineers is defined by one's views on the necessity of summiting.

[CascadeClimber]

If you aren't on top, you aren't on top. You might have completed the technical portion of a route, but if you do a Twight and throw your stove out on the Football Field and go down, you didn't summit or complete the route.

I think any other interpretation leads to rapid erosion of the term "summit".

And yes, I have at least one Rainier climb where we got to the crater rim, on the Emmons side, but it was so windy we couldn't get to Columbia Crest. I do not count this as a summit.

[ivan]

if you're ten foot below the summit, but eleven foot stoned, then ya summited  

Edited April 19, 2021 by ivan

[bigeo]

climbing is a game in which you can make your own rules

[bedellympian]

On 4/5/2021 at 10:18 AM, yesican said:

All responses pertain to outward representations made by climbers to other parties. Interesting.

At 55, I can tell you from experience that the self-aggrandizing trait of humanity was less common before social media gave everyone a free platform from which to paint themselves for everyone else.

*****

Why climb?

Is the fundamental goal to satisfy an inner drive, or put on an outward show?

A mountaineer inwardly craves a summit and would deny him or herself that objective only if safety required it.

Perhaps the distinction between climbers and mountaineers is defined by one's views on the necessity of summiting.

23 hours ago, bigeo said:

climbing is a game in which you can make your own rules

Yes, BUT it also is an activity/sport with a strong sense of community and history where we acknowledge what others have done (for better or worse, for awards/$$$ or otherwise), and if you choose to be part of that community by sharing experiences and you then LIE about what you actually did then you are undermining the community (of which this website is a part). Do what you want, but if you're going to participate in the communal/historical portion of climbing then tell the truth. 

 

 

[olyclimber]

Imagine climbing up some 8000m peak, and you get up right near the summit, but you fail to touch the very apex.  Like you're just feet away, and you could have reached out and touched it. Imagine this.

[genepires]

17 hours ago, olyclimber said:

Imagine climbing up some 8000m peak, and you get up right near the summit, but you fail to touch the very apex.  Like you're just feet away, and you could have reached out and touched it. Imagine this.

I have been to the summit of baker maybe 60 times.  Only stood on actual top for the first 6 or 7 times.   after that , it just felt inappropriate and disrespectful to "conquer" that beautiful mountain.  Just stood a couple feet below the summit and took photos for others.

[bedellympian]

Recent FA claims have me thinking of this thread. The desire to spray about your FA just because no one else has sprayed about the same line, and the desire to continue to claim an FA or similar accomplishment seems to stem from a lot of the same themes discussed here... self-aggrandizement, ego, and lack of honesty. 

For some reason this seems to be a common issue on Mt. Hood where you have many experienced climbers who have used it for training over the years and would never have thought to report a few moderate pitch variation as an FA and now those of us who have come up in the age of instagram assuming there are undone lines simply because it didn't show up anywhere on the internet. 

I experienced this issue a few years ago when I went to publish known routes on MP and was asked not to. Part of the reason given by developers and other regulars there was the parking access situation, but the other reason was to preserve the sense of adventure. The community by-and-large did not want to know what was there so that they could continue to practice ground up adventure climbing. Every ascent felt like an FA, until you found some old pins or a bolted belay station, but you had to mentally commit and prepare in the same way. Maybe, for scant resources like Mt. Hood ice routes this same ethic would preserve that sense of adventure. People could simply say "I climbed the Eliot" and post some cool pictures instead of worrying if that exact rock step or ice flow has been done before. Then everyone could go have an adventure and we can build skills for bigger adventures in bigger mountains (which I thought was the point and might actually lead to real FAs).

[Rad]

1 hour ago, bedellympian said:

Every ascent felt like an FA, until you found some old pins or a bolted belay station, but you had to mentally commit and prepare in the same way. 

Yes, this is a wonderful thing to give people, and in the long run it's far more valuable than a move by move beta spray.

In my book, if there is no uncertainty there is no adventure. Preserving that uncertainty for future explorers and climbers is valuable. 

[Off_White]

Here's some drone shot image of David Lama headed to the actual summit of Lunag Ri; clearly the distinction seemed to matter at the time.

[Bronco]

Recently skinning up Silver Star Glacier, I chatted with a descending couple and asked if they reached the summit.  The guy responds, "yes, well...I touched it with my chin".  I thought that sounded strange until I scrambled up to the summit and could see why someone wouldn't necessarily feel compelled to stand or even sit on the summit due to the terrific exposure.  As I sat there straddling the Au Cheval summit, I thought about how many other middle aged sweaty body parts had sat on this same little piece of rock.  My conclusion is that touching a chin on a summit would count as summiting but don't blame me if you develop a rash.