Power drilling in Wilderness Areas

[Bug]

Feck clearly stated his point: there are much bigger fish to fry as far as environmental issues are concerned. Actually, there isn't a smaller fish to fry than the 'bolt pandemic'. One might choose to, say, fight mining interests, for example. Lost on some, but a well punctuated point, nonetheless.

And I responded to that short sighted post.

Keep up.

[Kimmo]

IB was a mistake (FA party was not aware they were inside the wilderness) and I am not a proponent of removing it unless it becomes a precedent for wilderness bolting. The damage is done. My interest is to keep the discussion well known enough that it is not mistaken for an acceptable standard.

 

why, i do believe i am in complete agreement with you, sir.

[Kimmo]

and if someone could kindly remove the offending format destroying photo above, we could all live happily ever after.

[dberdinka]

Then presumably you are equally offended by every route in Darrington as well?

[Choada_Boy]

Yes. Heaven forbid you're format gets destroyed by a picture of overburden removal at one of the world's largest coal mines while you argue about bolts again.

[tvashtarkatena]

Feck clearly stated his point: there are much bigger fish to fry as far as environmental issues are concerned. Actually, there isn't a smaller fish to fry than the 'bolt pandemic'. One might choose to, say, fight mining interests, for example. Lost on some, but a well punctuated point, nonetheless.

And I responded to that short sighted post.

Keep up.

 

Speaking of 'up', you might try dragging your ass up IB sometime before commenting on it's 'style of bolting'. More cred that way.

 

Oh, and Darrington rocks. To the first ascenders out there: great job in a great area that know one would even know existed without your decades of hard work.

Edited February 1, 2010 by tvashtarkatena

[Kimmo]

why, you are right, sir. your large format photo has brought me to my senses. no more bolt arguments for me!

 

and since your photo has done its work, will you be kind enough to remove it, sir.

[Pete_H]

Then presumably you are equally offended by every route in Darrington as well?

 

As Jim Donini said on ST about Slab Daddy, "Hurts my feet just thinking about it."

[Kimmo]

why sir, i do not believe that the gentleman needs to climb the route in question to have pertinent opinions regarding said route. why, do i need to go out and clear-cut a forest to be able to speak about clear-cutting? no sir, i do not. and i do believe it is better this way.

[kukuzka1]

we really cant do much [except vote/give $]about the giant coal mine or the burning of rainforest but does that mean we should do whatever in our wilderness. yes its just bolts. we all do what we can. recycle, take the bus, ect... i guess its just the example it sets [every sportclimber rap bolting our awsome cascades, scary!]

[kukuzka1]

also i dont think you have to climb it to know what its about. its a long slab climb[oh, minus the risk/adveture/commitment]

Edited February 2, 2010 by kukuzka1

[AlpineK]

Feck clearly stated his point: there are much bigger fish to fry as far as environmental issues are concerned. Actually, there isn't a smaller fish to fry than the 'bolt pandemic'. One might choose to, say, fight mining interests, for example. Lost on some, but a well punctuated point, nonetheless.

And I responded to that short sighted post.

Keep up.

 

You gave little of a response.

 

Major impacts to the environment are like those that I described. There is a huge difference between them and bolting. Yes bolting has enough impact that it rates some discussion among differing sides, but the impact does not deserve attention like the mining I described or even the impact of ORVs in the wilderness.

 

If we spend any time on the subject it should be to discourage overbolting, crack bolting, or creating routes out of character with a crag.

 

Spending time and effort to preserve crags like Index is worth our time and effort. Idiotic arguements about whether bolts were placed on rap do not deserve our time. Sure saying I placed those bolts on lead is interesting information, but in the end a nice route with an appropriate amount of anchors is more important hang or no hang.

[billcoe]

Is this the big picture thread?

 

 

Bring it on bitches!

[Bug]

Feck clearly stated his point: there are much bigger fish to fry as far as environmental issues are concerned. Actually, there isn't a smaller fish to fry than the 'bolt pandemic'. One might choose to, say, fight mining interests, for example. Lost on some, but a well punctuated point, nonetheless.

And I responded to that short sighted post.

Keep up.

 

You gave little of a response.

 

Major impacts to the environment are like those that I described. There is a huge difference between them and bolting. Yes bolting has enough impact that it rates some discussion among differing sides, but the impact does not deserve attention like the mining I described or even the impact of ORVs in the wilderness.

 

If we spend any time on the subject it should be to discourage overbolting, crack bolting, or creating routes out of character with a crag.

 

Spending time and effort to preserve crags like Index is worth our time and effort. Idiotic arguements about whether bolts were placed on rap do not deserve our time. Sure saying I placed those bolts on lead is interesting information, but in the end a nice route with an appropriate amount of anchors is more important hang or no hang.

 

Do you want my environmental resume?

Put yours up.

I'll bet you haven't spent more than a tiny fraction of the time I have fighting for wilderness, fighting more mining like the Butte pit, fighting for cleaning up the mess from the Butte pit and on and on. I have references.

 

What have you done?

Probably recycled and talked trash on the internet.

Grow up.

Do you want to see grid bolting all over Garfield?

You probably do.

Your (and Tvash's) non-point is a pathetic dodge of personal responsibility.

Are you familiar with the concept of tacit approval?

Borrow Tvash's dictionary. He isn't using it.

[Hugh Conway]

Feck clearly stated his point: there are much bigger fish to fry as far as environmental issues are concerned. Actually, there isn't a smaller fish to fry than the 'bolt pandemic'. One might choose to, say, fight mining interests, for example. Lost on some, but a well punctuated point, nonetheless.

And I responded to that short sighted post.

Keep up.

 

You gave little of a response.

 

Major impacts to the environment are like those that I described. There is a huge difference between them and bolting. Yes bolting has enough impact that it rates some discussion among differing sides, but the impact does not deserve attention like the mining I described or even the impact of ORVs in the wilderness.

 

If we spend any time on the subject it should be to discourage overbolting, crack bolting, or creating routes out of character with a crag.

 

Spending time and effort to preserve crags like Index is worth our time and effort. Idiotic arguements about whether bolts were placed on rap do not deserve our time. Sure saying I placed those bolts on lead is interesting information, but in the end a nice route with an appropriate amount of anchors is more important hang or no hang.

 

Do you want my environmental resume?

Put yours up.

I'll bet you haven't spent more than a tiny fraction of the time I have fighting for wilderness, fighting more mining like the Butte pit, fighting for cleaning up the mess from the Butte pit and on and on. I have references.

 

What have you done?

Probably recycled and talked trash on the internet.

Grow up.

Do you want to see grid bolting all over Garfield?

You probably do.

Your (and Tvash's) non-point is a pathetic dodge of personal responsibility.

Are you familiar with the concept of tacit approval?

Borrow Tvash's dictionary. He isn't using it.

 

Jesus you are a douche, bug

[Bug]

Keep it in Darrington.

Long past salvaging for wilderness.

Garfield is off limits for that kind of free-for-all.

 

What do you know of respect Tvash?

It sure isn't evident from your behavior on cc.com that you've earned any. Glass houses n all.

Don't go all macho on me.

I'll give you a little tic list in the Bitterroot if you want.

You can look up the FA party's later.

I'll even throw in a couple in the Tetons and Winds. You might even double your impressive tr count.

Dickhead. Sheesh.

[Hugh Conway]

Is this the big picture thread?

 

 

Bring it on bitches!

 

So why'd you post some anorexic girls who'd break their arms on a 5.3? They've had more meth in them than Tacoma

[Bug]

One more glass house.

I've been pretty civil here until now.

Isn't this why we're in spray?

 

I'm betting that you pro-sport-routes-in-the-wilderness-types will look like total douches in the long run.

 

Dodge all you want.

[Bug]

Anyway, I've made my point.

Everything beyond this is empty spray.

 

Carry on.

[olyclimber]

no, after this is empty spray. or spayed spray, if you will.

[billcoe]

Here's one then.

[kevbone]

Thread hi-jacker!!!

[Choada_Boy]

What the fuck am I looking at? Are they transiting the moon?

[mattp]

Damn! There are some new ideas brought up here - at least somewhere in the mix. To that extent: right on, folks!

 

I've mostly stayed out of these discussions because we've been over most of this ground before and I've got other things to put my energy into. But it IS an important topic. I am the one who shipped the discussion to spray, so if you have complaints about that you can send them my way.

 

Lest somebody think I am avoiding "the issue," I'll say that I think IB is really not as important as it is often portrayed on cc.com. The "controversy" remains alive on this website but I don't think most climbers, the folks from the Forest Service, or even the organizers at the various wilderness advocacy groups spend near as much time worrying about this climb as they do a myriad of other issues. That is not to say that the issues raised are not significant: the issues related to what we think of large bolted routes, bolting in Wilderness, power drills, etc. remain. And the route is certainly a lightening rod. I climbed 3/4 of the route and I was not looking critically at the bolting but there were a lot of bolts but few places where I noticed readily available natural pro options. I placed a couple of pieces of gear to supplement what was there. My vote would be to leave the route as it is and I'd like to see the cc.com beehive devote our energy toward bringing about more of what we want to see in the future.

 

And me, personally? I've installed bolts on rappel and on lead, by hand and with a power drill. I've replaced old mank and maintained recognized classics. I have also put up some new routes - some with bolts and some alpine rock routes without any bolts. I think that the handful of routes I've established have been OK and I'd welcome feedback though I would be more happy to receive private messages rather than to be the topic of a debate thread on cc.com.

 

I also think that overall there is in fact a great deal more agreement than one might think from reading here about such questions as what is acceptable regarding the establishment of sport vs. trad routes, bolts next to cracks, or what have you. Yes, many if not most climbers don't "think" about these questions as much as they might or probably should. I have done quite a bit to promote discussion and awareness over the years, though I've grown tired of "these threads" on cc.com.

 

By the way: out of respect for our foul-mouthed good friend Lucky, I'll add my name and city. I think these discussions would be better if all participants did so.

 

Matt Perkins, Seattle

[Raindawg]

And me, personally? I've installed bolts on rappel and on lead, by hand and with a power drill.

 

Yah? But have you installed bolts with a power drill in a Wilderness Area? That's what this topic is about.

And if such routes have been illegally installed, should they be erased?