Power drilling in Wilderness Areas

[Bug]

Raindawg,

Thank you for stimulating a genuine conversation on the merits of IB and it's wilderness status.

The concept of wilderness is balked at by many but still manages to stir up support in the long run.

Those who stand in its defense are often attacked on many levels as though they are responsible for taking something away.

It is ironic that what is being taken away by those who balk can never be fully restored and what is preserved is there for all, over generations to come.

Signed respectfully,

Keith Schultz

[LUCKY]

nobodys going to spend 2 summers to chop the route rainpuss,you might stir up someone to chop a few of the first pitches and the climbers in the real world that actually climb have allready got the money for hardware and manpower in place to retro it.

 

Edited February 1, 2010 by LUCKY

[LUCKY]

Raindawg,

Thank you for stimulating a genuine conversation on the merits of IB and it's wilderness status.

The concept of wilderness is balked at by many but still manages to stir up support in the long run.

Those who stand in its defense are often attacked on many levels as though they are responsible for taking something away.

It is ironic that what is being taken away by those who balk can never be fully restored and what is preserved is there for all, over generations to come.

Signed respectfully,

Keith Schultz

Thanks Keith

Edited February 1, 2010 by LUCKY

[Mr. Spock]

Fascinating...

[LUCKY]

Fascinating...

climbing is my passion ...don't phuk with my passion climbing is like crack to me but with a better ending!

[Bug]

dawg the discussion's over - the positions have been stated, the reasons provided and all sides further entrenched - at this point there's nothing left to do but fucking curse - has one person changed their mind or made progress one way or t'other? for yourself, i don't reall you answering a serious question but i'll restate it for shits'n'giggles: if the whole thing was chopped and reinstalled by hand, would you stfu up about it?

"The Wilderness Act of 1964 institutionalized an idea, describing a wilderness as "an area where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain." By definition, then, it was a place where vehicles would not be allowed, where no permanent camps or structures could be made, where wildlife and its habitat would be kept in as primitive a condition as possible.""

 

 

Excerpted from Wilderness America, a 1990 publication of The Wilderness Society.

 

[LUCKY]

So you really think this route takes away from wilderness pay to play trails in wilderness

lets go climbing for a day and you can tell me all about Keith

and I got to tell you it takes a lot to man up and post your name I have respect for that.

 

Edited February 1, 2010 by LUCKY

[ivan]

dawg the discussion's over - the positions have been stated, the reasons provided and all sides further entrenched - at this point there's nothing left to do but fucking curse - has one person changed their mind or made progress one way or t'other? for yourself, i don't reall you answering a serious question but i'll restate it for shits'n'giggles: if the whole thing was chopped and reinstalled by hand, would you stfu up about it?

"The Wilderness Act of 1964 institutionalized an idea, describing a wilderness as "an area where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain." By definition, then, it was a place where vehicles would not be allowed, where no permanent camps or structures could be made, where wildlife and its habitat would be kept in as primitive a condition as possible.""

 

 

Excerpted from Wilderness America, a 1990 publication of The Wilderness Society.

so can i score that as a "no" or not? is this issue then the bolts or the power-drilled bolts?

[Bug]

I don't speak for Dawg.

For me the issues are bolting willy-nilly in a wilderness.

Using a power drill in the wilderness.

 

The route is in. I would not get all bent out of shape knowing it will stay. But if it is used as a shining example of why we should do more of this sort of thing then I would say "clean up the whole mess".

In short, when we stop bitching about it, some wanker with a power drill will think its OK to put another one right beside it and so forth....

That's when I will actively offer to help remove all bolts on Garfield.

[ivan]

seems to me 99% of the folks here are opposed to power drilling

 

hand drilling by its laborious nature oughta keep the total # of bolts/routes quite low

 

if the law is clear on the subject of power drilling, there should be clear legal penalites for it

 

trails will ultimately be more destructive, but trails already exist in wildernesses (or at least will if enough people go walking through it, and to say a wilderness should never have people in it is absurd) and again, w/o a ton of routes, there aren't going to be a lot of climber trails

 

dawg, its your "discussion" - is your view the same as bug's?

[Kimmo]

So...without resorting to crass name-calling or other distractions, why might you agree or disagree with the idea of those guys cleaning up their mistake?

 

i really don't see your point in asking the question above, but i kinda wanna answer it anyway.

 

so it turns out the thing was bolted in a wilderness area. with power drills. by mistake. an honest explainable mistake. it has been discussed by the powers that be, it has been discussed by the general climbing community, and it seems that a semblance of agreement has been reached by the majority: this route should be left in place, but there will be no tolerance for more routes established in a similar fashion.

 

this is my take on the situation. it's a route that's enjoyed by many, it's certainly NOT establishing a precedent, and most everyone agrees that removing it would lead to a quite intense "bolt war".

 

 

 

 

 

 

[tvashtarkatena]

I would say that IB has effectively prevented more such routes from being placed than any wilderness regulation or enforcement regimen ever would or could. Best of all worlds, really. No environmentalist could ever hope for a better deal.

Edited February 1, 2010 by tvashtarkatena

[Edlinger]

....LW has done more for my climbing experance than any other dude in the NW....

 

Lucky G., come on man. You've lost some hardman points with that statement. (but you've put in some nice routes yourself, and I'd love to check out your Olympia area. I'll tell you about a small old still secret area near Lacey that I used to climb at lot when I was a teen in the 80's.)

 

Tvash is right, this 2-3 year dialogue at gyms, on the net, around campfires, and on long car rides about the shitshow route Infinite Bliss has done a lot for public awareness.

Edited February 1, 2010 by Edlinger

[LUCKY]

Edited February 1, 2010 by LUCKY

[Bug]

Lame.

If you want to leave it alone, leave it alone.

[Bug]

Or if you want it to keep going, keep posting.

[ivan]

can we just instead turn this into an orgy of profanity, ye cock-slurping crew of cum-gargling sodomites?

[chirp]

Drilling is drilling, regardless of where and how. The only thing that matters is the quality and FUN of the end product IMHO.

 

Kolob Canyons

 

 

[Raindawg]

nobodys going to spend 2 summers to chop the route rainpuss,you might stir up someone to chop a few of the first pitches and the climbers in the real world that actually climb have allready got the money for hardware and manpower in place to retro it.

 

Thanks to you, this topic is now in spray. Happy now????

 

[Raindawg]

seems to me 99% of the folks here are opposed to power drilling

 

hand drilling by its laborious nature oughta keep the total # of bolts/routes quite low

 

if the law is clear on the subject of power drilling, there should be clear legal penalites for it

 

trails will ultimately be more destructive, but trails already exist in wildernesses (or at least will if enough people go walking through it, and to say a wilderness should never have people in it is absurd) and again, w/o a ton of routes, there aren't going to be a lot of climber trails

 

dawg, its your "discussion" - is your view the same as bug's?

 

"Fixing the mistake" would send a clear message: keep your power drills and other machines out of the wilderness.

If it weren't for power drilling, (on rappel, no less,) this route wouldn't exist. And trails? Manufacture a sport climb and it will attract "climbers" like flies to dung. IB already has.

[LUCKY]

nobodys going to spend 2 summers to chop the route rainpuss,you might stir up someone to chop a few of the first pitches and the climbers in the real world that actually climb have allready got the money for hardware and manpower in place to retro it.

 

Thanks to you, this topic is now in spray. Happy now????

where it belongs

Edited February 1, 2010 by LUCKY

[kukuzka1]

once again its been established that the face didnt need to be rap bolted to be climbed.

[Bug]

once again its been established that the face didnt need to be rap bolted to be climbed.

Once again CC.com moderators and posters have demonstrated a short sighted, selfish stance on a topic that will probably define this era to following generations of climbers.

 

[MarkMcJizzy]

Once again CC.com moderators and posters have demonstrated a short sighted, selfish stance on a topic that will probably define this era to following generations of climbers.

 

And only one poster drug it down by his vulgarity and threats

[G-spotter]

Here's a cool quote from a French guy posting about a new trad area in France on UK Climbing to try and get some British trad climbers to come over:

 

Yes, we manage to climb all long the year because during summer you can stay protect from the sun in some gorges and during winter, the major part of the sectors are sunny.

It's funny because we (mostly me) are also "drill machine maniac" but these cracks were so pure to be bolted and a trip in indian creek/yose and stanage 10 years ago show us how it can be interesting to clim trad.

 

Last year some french (strong and famous) climbers started to bold the route we have already done with trad stuff, we had to distruct everythink but a lot of them still think that we are bastards!!!

That's why we want to promote the spot in order to protect it.

 

 

Thanks if you come

lionel