Hell NO on I-1098

[tvashtarkatena]

And denying them SS and unemployment benefits.

[tvashtarkatena]

and drivers licenses.

[rob]

weird that police and 911 and firefighters are all "essential services", but medical care is not. Weird that the government can run police departments so smoothly they are diging virgina out of its deficit, but shouldn't be trusted to run hospitals. Jesus, guys, make up your minds.

[tvashtarkatena]

Apparently reading comprehension is not your strong suit. Then again, I'll give you a free pass, since that article is worded pretty poorly. It says "help" with a $2b+ budget shortfall. Even handing out 7000 tickets in a weekend will generate nowhere near that much money. Even if it did, that would be just great for VSP, but not for the "most" departments - local, county, state, etc - which is what you applied your statement to. But frankly all of that is aside from the point. The point is you just continue to make up new factoids to support your point of view, which is just that, your point of view, and not reality.

 

"Since 2006, a total of twenty-three ticketing blitzes have taken place, generating 120,977 traffic tickets."

 

As a fun little excercise, I'll let you figure out just how much each of those tickets would have to cost to cover the $2.2b. You can even apply all 4 years of tickets to the single year budget shortfall if you want *and* assume the department has no operating budget.

 

Funny, you lecture reading comprehension but then turn around fail yourself. I never said they generated 2.2B with written tickets, just that they were "digging the state out of a 2.2b deficit with written tickets". It emphasizes the revenue generating potential of large departments that the state would call on the department in such a manner. Obviously its a single example (which you seam to like) but still the norm in states like OR and WA.

 

 

Being a bidness numbers kinda guy, I don't usually call a sub 2% number 'digging out'; I call that 'noise'. That's more like 'tea spooning out'. Or 'tea bagging out', perhaps.

Edited September 20, 2010 by tvashtarkatena

[Nitrox]

so, first he argues that public industry is notoriously inefficient and that governmental agencies can't run anything right, but then turns around and argues that police departments are run so smoothly that they pay for themselves, AND help the states with their budget shortfalls.

 

one of these is not like the other

 

Nope, police is an essential service. No one besides you has advocated privatizing it.

 

 

so is medicine

 

So, essential services can be entrusted to be run properly by the government, the same government you claim can't run anything as effectively as private industry?

 

Quote where I said that.

 

 

[tvashtarkatena]

weird that police and 911 and firefighters are all "essential services", but medical care is not. Weird that the government can run police departments so smoothly they are diging virgina out of its deficit, but shouldn't be trusted to run hospitals. Jesus, guys, make up your minds.

 

We'll take you to the hospital, but we'll have to dump you in the parking lot...

[JoshK]

Apparently reading comprehension is not your strong suit. Then again, I'll give you a free pass, since that article is worded pretty poorly. It says "help" with a $2b+ budget shortfall. Even handing out 7000 tickets in a weekend will generate nowhere near that much money. Even if it did, that would be just great for VSP, but not for the "most" departments - local, county, state, etc - which is what you applied your statement to. But frankly all of that is aside from the point. The point is you just continue to make up new factoids to support your point of view, which is just that, your point of view, and not reality.

 

"Since 2006, a total of twenty-three ticketing blitzes have taken place, generating 120,977 traffic tickets."

 

As a fun little excercise, I'll let you figure out just how much each of those tickets would have to cost to cover the $2.2b. You can even apply all 4 years of tickets to the single year budget shortfall if you want *and* assume the department has no operating budget.

 

Funny, you lecture reading comprehension but then turn around fail yourself. I never said they generated 2.2B with written tickets, just that they were "digging the state out of a 2.2b deficit with written tickets". It emphasizes the revenue generating potential of large departments that the state would call on the department in such a manner. Obviously its a single example (which you seam to like) but still the norm in states like OR and WA.

 

 

Touche, you got me, "digging out" indeed...the same way one could dig our new highway 99 under-city tunnel with a little kid's beach sand shovel and some day complete it.

 

The point is you were completely and totally incorrect with your assertion, and despite both common sense and evidence to the contrary you keep going.

[tvashtarkatena]

Yeah, totally busted.

 

Book 'im, Dano.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

 

Well, thankfully "the people of washington", myself included, disagree with you.

 

I think you mean the people who live on the islands are thankful, I doubt many residents on the east side of the state agree with it.

 

 

Maybe not. But myself and the other Seattlites are happily paying for their nice highways now, aren't we? Amazing how things work in a society.

 

People who *live* on the islands aren't the only ones using the ferries. Duh.

 

 

[JoshK]

 

People who *live* on the islands aren't the only ones using the ferries. Duh.

 

 

Very true, yet more reason why it's a perfectly valid government service for our state. Thanks for getting my back on this one kk.

[Hugh Conway]

 

Well, thankfully "the people of washington", myself included, disagree with you.

 

I think you mean the people who live on the islands are thankful, I doubt many residents on the east side of the state agree with it.

 

 

Maybe not. But myself and the other Seattlites are happily paying for their nice highways now, aren't we? Amazing how things work in a society.

 

People who *live* on the islands aren't the only ones using the ferries. Duh.

 

 

dissention amongst the reactionaries? oh dear

[KaskadskyjKozak]

dissention amongst the reactionaries? oh dear

 

yeah everyone fits into the same pigeon hole, thanks j_b

 

The comment about funding islanders was just over the top. There are plenty of bridges that facilitate access to people living in one place and driving to another to work too (I-90 and 520 bridge anyone?)

[tvashtarkatena]

 

People who *live* on the islands aren't the only ones using the ferries. Duh.

 

 

Very true, yet more reason why it's a perfectly valid government service for our state. Thanks for getting my back on this one kk.

 

One word: Tourism.

 

You may as well ask a planarian to design a starship as ask a Kochsucker to grok anything from a systems perspective.

[Nitrox]

Apparently reading comprehension is not your strong suit. Then again, I'll give you a free pass, since that article is worded pretty poorly. It says "help" with a $2b+ budget shortfall. Even handing out 7000 tickets in a weekend will generate nowhere near that much money. Even if it did, that would be just great for VSP, but not for the "most" departments - local, county, state, etc - which is what you applied your statement to. But frankly all of that is aside from the point. The point is you just continue to make up new factoids to support your point of view, which is just that, your point of view, and not reality.

 

"Since 2006, a total of twenty-three ticketing blitzes have taken place, generating 120,977 traffic tickets."

 

As a fun little excercise, I'll let you figure out just how much each of those tickets would have to cost to cover the $2.2b. You can even apply all 4 years of tickets to the single year budget shortfall if you want *and* assume the department has no operating budget.

 

Funny, you lecture reading comprehension but then turn around fail yourself. I never said they generated 2.2B with written tickets, just that they were "digging the state out of a 2.2b deficit with written tickets". It emphasizes the revenue generating potential of large departments that the state would call on the department in such a manner. Obviously its a single example (which you seam to like) but still the norm in states like OR and WA.

 

 

Touche, you got me, "digging out" indeed...the same way one could dig our new highway 99 under-city tunnel with a little kid's beach sand shovel and some day complete it.

 

The point is you were completely and totally incorrect with your assertion, and despite both common sense and evidence to the contrary you keep going.

 

This came right out of the link you provided, however, you edited out most of the paragraph.

 

The Police Department budget is primarily provided for by two funding sources. A permanent police mill levy and the City’s general fund. In addition to these sources, the department aggressively pursues other sources of funding revenue through anti-crime enforcement, seizure and forfeiture, creative grant application, supplemental service contracts, and support from private and community organizations. The Division, City, and taxpayers all benefit from these and other funding resources.

 

Your own link supports what I said.

 

Department revenue goes into the general fund before getting given to the department. Primary funding will always ledger as "General Fund" regardless of the percentage that the department creates.

 

 

[AlpineK]

I think if your house catches fire you should give the fire department your credit card number if you want the fire put out.

 

There ya go, personal choice! Tell your neighbors to fuck off when their houses catch fire too.

 

[img:center]http://imgs.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2008/12/08/mn-f18crash09_ph_0499541199.jpg[/img]

 

[JoshK]

 

This came right out of the link you provided, however, you edited out most of the paragraph.

 

The Police Department budget is primarily provided for by two funding sources. A permanent police mill levy and the City’s general fund. In addition to these sources, the department aggressively pursues other sources of funding revenue through anti-crime enforcement, seizure and forfeiture, creative grant application, supplemental service contracts, and support from private and community organizations. The Division, City, and taxpayers all benefit from these and other funding resources.

 

Your own link supports what I said.

 

]Department revenue goes into the general fund before getting given to the department. Primary funding will always ledger as "General Fund" regardless of the percentage that the department creates.

 

 

Arggghh...this is like talking, err, typing, to a brick wall.

 

"In addition to these sources, the department aggressively pursues other sources of funding revenue" does not mean it is the primary means of funding. It means exactly what it says: that they also pursue other forms of funding in addition to being financed by our tax dollars. How can you possibly NOT understand that? I never said they didn't also use those means, but you flat out said most departments are primarily internally funded, and they are not.

[prole]

I think if your house catches fire you should give the fire department your credit card number if you want the fire put out.

There ya go, personal choice! Tell your neighbors to fuck off when their houses catch fire too.

 

Once again, L.A. leads the way. Too Big To Burn: AIG Plays God in a Man-Made Firestorm

 

 

[Hugh Conway]

dissention amongst the reactionaries? oh dear

 

yeah everyone fits into the same pigeon hole, thanks j_b

 

The comment about funding islanders was just over the top. There are plenty of bridges that facilitate access to people living in one place and driving to another to work too (I-90 and 520 bridge anyone?)

 

you've been voted off the bandwagon!

[Nitrox]

 

This came right out of the link you provided, however, you edited out most of the paragraph.

 

The Police Department budget is primarily provided for by two funding sources. A permanent police mill levy and the City’s general fund. In addition to these sources, the department aggressively pursues other sources of funding revenue through anti-crime enforcement, seizure and forfeiture, creative grant application, supplemental service contracts, and support from private and community organizations. The Division, City, and taxpayers all benefit from these and other funding resources.

 

Your own link supports what I said.

 

]Department revenue goes into the general fund before getting given to the department. Primary funding will always ledger as "General Fund" regardless of the percentage that the department creates.

 

 

Arggghh...this is like talking, err, typing, to a brick wall.

 

"In addition to these sources, the department aggressively pursues other sources of funding revenue" does not mean it is the primary means of funding. It means exactly what it says: that they also pursue other forms of funding in addition to being financed by our tax dollars. How can you possibly NOT understand that? I never said they didn't also use those means, but you flat out said most departments are primarily internally funded, and they are not.

 

You have yet to provide anything that contradicts what I said. Your own sources support my position.

 

Here is what you originally latched onto because you can't seam to wrap your head around exactly how much money PD's generate (and contribute to the General Fund which intern pays their budget in addition to other sources).

 

Most PD's are primarily internally funded. While they do get external funding it is not their primary source.

 

The context of the conversation is essential services verses nonessential services (like lottery, liquor, and IMO ferries). PD's were brought up but as I said they largely (read: most) support themselves. I even showed that some departments are used to help cure state deficits (VSP) which sure would indicate the department was creating a large revenue.

 

 

 

 

 

[Nitrox]

I'm out for the evening, have a nice night fellas.

 

 

[billcoe]

Dumb as bricks these guys.

 

3 things;

 

1st) Have a nice night.

 

2nd) You might need to spend a lot more time explaining what the difference is between an essential service and a non-essential service to have a cogent debate and informed conversation here. Try talking slower. M...U...C...H... M...U...C...H S...L...O...W...E...R.

 

3rd) Remember that these guys only typically read the first 3 words of any of your posts. So if you need to include an insult in your post, LIKE THEY ALMOST ALWAYS DO, start your post out with a the insult so they catch it. I think challenging debate must mentally disturb them. They continually resort to the idiotic tactic of attacking any opposition in the mistaken belief that if they can yell loud enough and spew enough invective so that you walk away: then they think that they must have been correct all along and you were misguided. Do this and you'll have it covered. Like talking to a wall covered.

 

Good luck!

[Hugh Conway]

Dumb as bricks these guys.

 

took you long enough

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Dumb as bricks these guys.

 

3 things;

 

1st) Have a nice night.

 

2nd) You might need to spend a lot more time explaining what the difference is between an essential service and a non-essential service to have a cogent debate and informed conversation here. Try talking slower. M...U...C...H... M...U...C...H S...L...O...W...E...R.

 

3rd) Remember that these guys only typically read the first 3 words of any of your posts. So if you need to include an insult in your post, LIKE THEY ALMOST ALWAYS DO, start your post out with a the insult so they catch it. I think challenging debate must mentally disturb them. They continually resort to the idiotic tactic of attacking any opposition in the mistaken belief that if they can yell loud enough and spew enough invective so that you walk away: then they think that they must have been correct all along and you were misguided. Do this and you'll have it covered. Like talking to a wall covered.

 

Good luck!

 

I don't know if ferry service is an "essential" service, but my guess is that in this case public wins over private - it would be more expensive (with less service per day) if privatized.

[Hugh Conway]

I don't know if ferry service is an "essential" service, but my guess is that in this case public wins over private - it would be more expensive (with less service per day) if privatized.

 

FREE MARKET BABY!

[j_b]

The efficiency of the "free" market: