Is it worth dying for?

[AlpineMonkey]

Is it worth dying for?

 

Just as I began climbing rock, I had no training, no mentor, no one to tell me right from wrong. I consider myself lucky during those early years. I’m not trying to sound like a hard ass here; as I know we have all had our share of close calls. But after driving around this weekend in search of ice, I was appalled and somewhat pissed off by what I consider extremely poor judgment and recklessness by some very experienced climbers.

 

It was January 15, 2005 and my good friend David and I were headed out to banks to learn to ice climb. We both had climbed once or twice prior to this day on top rope and were eager to test our new found source of fun on lead. Devils Punchbowl seemed like a logical place to start.

 

Similarly to yesterday, there were lots of icicles threatening the climb. Some were the size of my body and others the size of my car. Being inexperienced as we were, we thought that since it was cold out that we would be safe. We started hiking up to do the climb, but lucky for us we came across Trotsky’s Folly instead.

 

Minutes later there was an explosion, the ground began to rumble. Even though we were no were near the climb, tons bucket sized ice chunks made it down to us and our packs. If we would have been on route I’m sure we would have died.

 

About an hour later a party pulled up and started climbing the route.

 

Yesterday a party was climbing the Punchbowl under similar conditions. I watched them climb under those icicles for nearly a half hour. Luckily for them, only small ones broke off when they were on route, leaving them to doge softball sized chunks. They were moving very slow on the route and clearly not experienced. I probably would have shit my pants when the first soft ball flew past my head, knowing there was icicles much bigger up there, but that’s just me.

 

Then two experienced climbers pulled up. One man got out and asked us what we were doing? I told him we were “just watching.” He said, “Oh, so you’re not ice climbers…” I said, “Yeah we are, but were just watching.” He then replied in a macho kind of voice, “Well how are you going to learn if your just watching.”

 

Then I watched as two more headed up the hill to do the same damn thing. I couldn’t believe it.

 

[ivan]

ice in the nw makes us stupid - it's so rare to see and hard to get on that whenever it forms up, judgement is impaired - jeebus, come watch crown point in the gorge when it forms up and a dozen teams will do it in a day, all stacked on top of each other and taking heavy artillery from the teams above - how that hasn't given someone the chop already i dont' know

 

anyhow, as to the question, we all know the only thing worth dying for it god, cooze n' kkkountry!

[genepires]

evolution is dead.

[Rafael_H]

What else was in around Banks?

[XXX]

In short no.

 

Just move to Alberta where there is real ice.

[Dane]

One, no, the major reason, I seldom climb ice in WA....

 

Guess they just weren't that "experienced". Good call Craig.

[jon]

[icegirl]

we call them deathsicles for a reason. They always seem like a great opportunity for target practice (the ice, not the dumb arse climbers)

[Bob Loomis]

Dear Fellow Climbers,

 

The topic of risk in climbing raised by AlpineMonkey (“AM”—no insult intended, just a keystroke saving abbreviation) is an important one, and since I was one of the people at the Devil’s Punchbowl (“DP”) last weekend, I thought it useful if I made a contribution to this forum. Part of me is reluctant to do so, but the risk seems worth it. The Internet is a great innovation, but sometimes the anonymity afforded a person (Usernames, etc.), emboldens a person to say things they would otherwise be reluctant to say in face-to-face conversation. So in contributing to this important topic I run the risk of being the target for fellow climbers who are not interested in thoughtful discussion. But on the other hand most climbers are interested in thoughtful discussion, especially about a topic which is at the core of what we love to do, so proceeding with a contribution seems worth it. I have and will continue to raise the level of my postings by signing off with my real name so I take ownership for my words.

What AM brings up has been with us climbers since inception. It comes under different names—the physchology of risk, risk-management, risk perception, etc. Risk is at the core of climbing, especially at the higher levels. Whole books, biographies, autobiographies, CDs, lectures, journal articles, seminars, etc., all related to climbing have been generated about this topic. So far be it for me to make a contribution of that caliber. But what I can do is tell you what was going through my head on the day in question, and how I evaluated the risk, which might be informative to others.

First, I am by nature a somewhat conservative climber. In fact most of my partners over the decades have told me in one way or another that I could be a substantially more accomplished climber if I were willing to take more risks. I think they are right. Putting aside issues like time commitment, level of athleticism, a big reason why I am not a more accomplished climber is I am not willing to expose myself to the objective hazards, long leader falls, etc., which are part of climbing at a higher level—I back off things frequently, I put in too many screws, etc. So an irony for me is that on one of the days mentioned by AM, I thought and believed that I was acting responsibly, and only undertaking a modest amount of risk. So what was my decision-making?

AM mentions both Saturday and Sunday. I was at DP on Saturday (2 January) later in the afternoon. The two days were quite different. Sunday (in Spokane) was warm, somewhere in the range of 10 or more degrees warmer (Celcius) than Saturday. Due to that factor alone I would have judged DP too objectively dangerous a place to be. But on Saturday the daytime temperature reached around +2 C (I did not have a thermometer in the field, but that is about right). My partner and I spent most of the day a couple of kilometers to the south of DP, at Pee Wee’s Playground. The ice was stellar—steep, and most of it was blue. The entire time we were there it was quiet—no ice fell, no rockfall, etc.

So after we finished at the playground, we were heading home to Spokane. On the spur of the moment we decided to get in one more pitch at DP. Earlier in the day we had dropped off two friends at DP. They wanted to climb there as they did not feel ready for the steeper stuff. Both of they seemed comfortable. One has climbed Denali and taken technical water ice classes, etc. The other one, in addition to be a climber for some years, teaches classes in risk management, rope management, building anchors, avalanche rescue, etc., and is a professional engineer. They elected not to join us at the playground, so we were picking them up at DP, but as I said we decided to get in one more pitch to close out the day. My comments do not include what they thought, evaluated, etc. I write only for myself.

Evaluations and perceptions of risk involve the question of generalization versus particularization. Consider by analogy the risky task of driving a car. We all know that scores of people die daily from auto fatalities, and a host more a seriously injured. Daily the number is high for near misses (people not signalling when changing lanes on the freeway, etc.). No question, driving a car entails risk. If one generalizes the risk (every stretch of road is at all times in a dangerous condition) too much, one would never drive. So most people, consciously or unconsciously, particularize the risk (what is the risk at this moment for this stretch of road under these conditions—daylight, icy, etc.), and make driving decisions accordingly—and most live to talk about it later. I submit that we as climbers do the same thing, again, consciously or unconsciously—that is we particularize the risk (what is the risk today, on this route, under these conditions, with the equipment I have, the partner I have, the time I have, the route information I have, my conditioning, etc.) and try to use our best judgment, and again most of us live to talk about it later.

So here is how I particularized the risk. I started with our experience at the playground—no issues, so extraploting just a couple of kilometers, it seemed likely there would be few issues. The preceding days seemed cold enough at night to keep the ice in good condition (incidentally the ice on route I led at DP that day was in excellent condition). Also I had climbed at DP before, including with some world class climbers (no hyperbole—I really mean world class), under much worse conditions with no issues. Like any location, climbing venue, mountain, etc., DP is not one entity. It is at least three separate venues, and the risk changes substantially depending on which of the three you happen to be at. There is the lower area where Trotsky’s Folly (TF) is located. There is the upper left side where Trotsky’s Revenge (TR) is located. Then there is the right side main amphitheater (MA). So by breaking DP down (particularizing it) I was able to get a closer approximation of the actual risk. TF looked loose and wet—detached from the rock—not a great choice. The MA also looked unattractive. I had climbed TR before—several times and knew that there were several ways up. The left side of TR puts one right underneath a large icecicle, but by hewing to the right side there are either no icecicles or small ones (that day while I was on it nothing fell from above on the right side of TR). TR and MA are divided by a rock escarpment which shields climbers from almost anything that might come from above, no matter how large.

My partner and I hiked up to meet our friends and proceeded over to and under the rock escarpment. I led the right side of TR and set up a belay at the slings and descent rings at the large bush that sits atop the right side of TR. The large icecicle above the left side of TR then broke loose. Yes, it was big, but it fell where I anticipated, harmless off to the left side of TR. I did not get hit, other than a bit of a dusting from ice fragments in the air. My rope did not get hit. No person in our group got hit since the others were well off on the right side and sheltered by the rock escarpment.

Evidence of the relative safety of the route choice and location of my belay is found in the good size growth and existence of the big bush which is used as the rappel point. If ice fell there on an annual basis I suspect that area would be scoured clean, much like an annual avalanche path is kept clean. But other than evidence of plenty of climbers standing around the large bush, it is very much alive, well, and large. Is this route choice, and belay and rappel location completely free of objective danger? No. But was this route choice for TR fairly free of objective danger at the time? In my estimation the answer is “yes.” Can I empirically back up that statement? No. In fact a critic of my choice would be free to point out what did fall off to the left, and what might have fallen during the time I was not there. My reply is that based on prior experience, on the spot field assessment based on breaking the risk down, rather than generalizing it to all of DP, etc., I, or any other observant and reasonably objective climber, could acertain a reasonably safe way to climb the route. I would offer as support the fact that no one in our group at the time received anything more than a dusting from ice crystals in the air (the two others earlier in the day had been in the MA and did report bits of ice falling). Would such an assessment of risk always work all the time? No. It was, and always is an informed judgment call.

But AM does raise legitimate points. Change our location, route selection, level of experience, etc., and the risk could have risen dramatically. Others may have done exactly that at other times on the days in question. Also AM is right to observe how much experience and judgment (or lack thereof) was involved in the decisions of others. I cannot speak for others. All I can do is to try to give you a window into my thinking at the time.

Knowing what I know now (that a large piece of ice was close to falling and did fall nearby—20/20 hindsight), would I have still done what I did? Well, honestly I do not know, but probably yes—I and my partner were climbing well, the route ice was good, it was a pretty day, and we were having fun on a reasonably safe route choice. What I and my partner did was safe given that we were untouched. But could the result have been different? Yes, it could have been. But to live in a world of what could happen to you, versus what is likely to happen to you, is for competent climbers two very different worlds. I try to live in the latter and not the former.

Helen Keller is reported to have said something to the effect that life is either lived as a daring adventure or it is not lived at all. Her comments are not license to live stupidly, but they have value for climbers who seek adventure, challenge, and to raise their standards. There has been, is, and is likely to be continued debate in climbing about this topic. Seekers of safety tend to focus on sport climbing, bouldering, gym climbing, etc. Seekers of adventure are drawn to other aspects of climbing. Fortunately we have some freedom about this choice.

There is another risk not raised by AM—the risk of living a banal life. If one drifts too much in the direction of risk avoidance, declining challenging situations, I submit that one runs the risk of living a less vibrant, less fulfilling, less rewarding life. Risk and reward are commensurate—the lives of all the greats that have gone before us, and not just in climbing—stand for this proposition. Many climbers today have not an inkling of what the likes of Walter Bonatti, Jeff Lowe, Barry Blanchard, Lionel Terray, Peter Croft, Bill Tilman, Eric Shipton, etc., did with integrity in climbing and the risks they took. But in my estimation they and others were and are the pathfinders who lit the way with their example. They have a torch to pass to our generation. I am not fit to walk in their shoes, but I can try to be their student and learn. Fortunately there are climbers of the current generation who have picked up the torch and are carrying it forward—Colin Haley, Sonnie Trotter, Steve House, Leo Houlding, Vince Anderson, etc.

So in sum, was I on the day in question a wild reckless fool with his life? That is for you to judge. With as much objectivity as I can bring to the task of self-assessment, and with the wisdom of a middle-aged, seasoned climber, I am inclined to say “no.” I made a field assessment, added in my experience and judgement, and safely climbed a nice piece of ice unaffected by nearby risks, and in the process added to an already good day.

 

Cheers and safe climbing to all,

Bob Loomis, Spokane, WA. >loomis@rescue.com<

 

[giza]

omg looks at all them words.... anyone care to write the Coles Notes version for us ADHD folk?

[TimL]

Is it worth dying for?

 

J

Then two experienced climbers pulled up. One man got out and asked us what we were doing? I told him we were “just watching.” He said, “Oh, so you’re not ice climbers…” I said, “Yeah we are, but were just watching.” He then replied in a macho kind of voice, “Well how are you going to learn if your just watching.”

 

 

A.) You threw out a stupid rhetorical question.

 

B.) Why were you just watching? Morbid curiosity? Or to say, "I told you so"?

 

What's your point?

 

 

[Pilchuck71]

Right on Bob.

Thank you for your thoughtful post.

 

[spionin]

omg looks at all them words.... anyone care to write the Coles Notes version for us ADHD folk?

 

sure. there was a question posted expressing legitimate concern and reiterating something all of us climbers [should] ask ourselves ALL THE TIME (ideally not in retrospect,or following a tragedy), followed by an extremely thoughtful answer by an experienced, cautious person who had no problem owning up to his decisions/actions. if you ever have to defend yourself in a similar argument, you might want to cite his work.

 

 

thanks craig and bob.

[denalidave]

It is a reasonable question and in hind site, after tragedy, most folks probable think it's not worth it. I wonder if people ask the same question about driving on the freeway?

[Edlinger]

Great post and food for thought. Acceptable risk means something very different in America than it does in Europe.Even though I think the punch bowl would be the most perfect teaching flow that always forms, I consider it far to dangerous to be on rope teaching a noob to ice climb. One would be under the death cicles far to many minutes. Time in the line of fire is everything in our game.

:brew:Anyone want to race me car to car on the punchbowl? Could it go in under four minutes if you run from the car with your crampons on?

[Calvinclimber]

Good Question, Good answer by a climber who owned up to his actions.

[Pete_H]

Its impossible to make a judgment on the situation without having been there but I do think safety is relative and ice climbing, especially in the NW, is all about timing.

 

Props to Craig for holding off when he thought something wasn't safe and I'd have say, Bob, Craig is hardly an anonymous poster.

[AlpineMonkey]

I also thought about posting my question. That was an awesome, very specific response. Thank you. I had not intended to single anyone out. My post was for people to really consider and think about what they are getting into before risking the consequences of climbing under those icicles. Obviously the climbers up there put much thought into their line, choosing one which was more sheltered and safe. Every single year I have seen someone climbing under the ice and it always makes me cringe. I consider that far more dangerous then hanging out under seracs, cornices, loose rock, etc. It doesn’t take much to send those things down. Thanks for the very thoughtful post. I think this discussion will be usefull for parties in the future thinking about climbing the route.

[montypiton]

Wow-good thread that didn't get hijacked! I'm impressed! Bob, thanks for taking the time to write a well thought-out response. I'd be the last to say that what's not safe for some is therefor not safe for all. Ultimately, the greatest safety tool is between our ears, and you apparently know how to use yours. I'll always remember a spanish climber at Devils Tower back in '76 who taught me to always LOOK UP whenever I hear the cry "ROCK" because "you can't dodge what you don't see". Fernando taught me a great deal about safety -- and not all of it intuitive. I'm grateful to guys like you and Fernando. Thanks for accepting the risk of posting your thoughts.

 

-Curt "Haireball" Haire

[Bob Loomis]

Dear Fellow Climbers,

 

I am genuinely glad for the mature and thoughtful tone of the discussion. Just a couple of things. Last night for the first time since last Saturday, I had a chance to talk to my partner (and had him read my post) to see if I had been accurate (there is always a bit of subjective interpretation person-by-person to the same event). He said I got the narrative right. It may not matter, but when discussing decision-making relative to risk, it helps if readers get the sense that something is largely accurate.

When I started out my post by observing about the nature of the Internet, I most definitely did not mean to identify any person, I was just making a broad sociological observation. So I hope no offense was taken. I do not know who Craig is, but it would be out of character for me to atack someone in such a backhanded way. So to Craig I was simply making a broad observation about human behaviour as opposed to making a comment about a person and/or you.

Since I focused on the topic of risk in my original post I, in the interest of brevity (I know my first post was detailed), did not discuss one item. In AM's original post he references some climbers making a comment about why was AM and his partner watching instead of climbing, and doing so in a macho tone of voice (taking at face value the accuracy of AM's recollection of events). When my partner and I arrived at DP there were two climbers watching, and it might be that one was AM, but I do not know.

My recollection of my actions (my partner can speak for himself) was getting out of the truck, going over, shaking hands, having a brief pleasant chat and then I going back to our truck to get my gear. It would be very much out of character (for anyone who really knows me) for me to make such a backhanded swipe at another person, much less in a macho tone of voice (not sure I could do it if I tried). But as I sit here typing these words I cannot recall what I specifically said. So if pressed could I categorically deny making such a statement to the climbers my partner and I encountered at the parking area for DP (possibly AM)? No, my memory of what was said is not that good, but I sure as heck hope that no such words came out of my mouth.

So to AM, if it was me and I said anything close to what you reported in the tone of voice you reported, you have my unreserved and abject apology. I will do better next time. And like I say if it was me and we ever meet again, allow me to buy you a beer and restate my apology to you face-to-face like any person of integrity would/should do.

 

Cheers to all,

Bob Loomis, Spokane, WA. >loomis@rescue.com<

[Choada_Boy]

I yelled "Get the fuck out of here!" to Pete and his partner when I met him in Darrington, when he and his partner were gearing up for their FA on Whitehorse a few winters ago. We had just rolled up and I thought they might be going for our route. They didn't seem to mind.

[YocumRidge]

Thanks to all for the thought-provoking thread that goes well beyond the DP risks.

 

How far would you go in pushing the objective danger limits? You might get lucky and survive in an undoubted tour-de-force. Or not.

 

Or would you always appeal to risk assessment? Or intuition, the sense that is not rooted in anything as concrete as physics or experience?

 

The choice is yours but at the end of the day it all comes to the ultimate wish for the loss of loss.

 

[m stambaugh]

I was one of the "newbies" who were climbing in DP when Craig pulled up. We had been climbing in the same area all morning and decided to do a hanging belay/multipitch since this route could be done a bit too quickly. Once in the hanging belay a softball size piece buzzed by (I thought it was the size of a basketball at the time :-), so we quickly aborted the climb and got the hell out of there. It should be noted that this was the first hint of instability we saw that day. It should also be noted that this route was very exposed, so a quick exit was quite warranted. I am the first to question my own judgement to attempt a multipitch of it when one was not necessary.

 

The climb to the left, however, was nearly verticle. This is the one that Bob and partner climbed. The death-cicles were positioned quite a way back from this climb, so the ice was moving so quickly by the time it went over the edge that it was vaulted way out into free air. If this happened while bob was leading the climb he would have been quite safe because no ice would have come within 10 feet of him (estimate). The only time that he would have been at risk was the minute or so it took him to crest the edge and get to the belay. Was this risk warranted? I don't know, but I've taken similar risks many times on alpine routes and avy terrain as I quickly crossed exposed areas.

 

Sometimes it's good to get an up close and personal perspective :-) The perspective from the road I'm sure was quite different.

[Dane]

I know both Craig and Bob. Good guys and both strong, thoughtful climbers.

 

Here is my 2 cents FWIW.

 

Good or bad judgement in climbing is generally decided by one thing...coming back unharmed or not. If you live through it unharmed most will say, "that was good judgement." When you look deeper what happens inbetween might make you think otherwise.

 

I make no bones about not liking desert ice. I know some very strong ice climbers who have taken some good whippers out there all on rotten ice while ripping picks. If picks are ripping the gear isn't all that good either in my experience...which is long and through on water ice. Most of the desert ice is sun baked refrozen garbage by Canadain standards. If you learn to climb ice in the desert you'll likely be able to climb ice anywhere is my experience. For a lot of guys desert ice is the majority of what they can get. Nothing wrong wth that.

 

But good ice climbers still don't accept falling on ice under any circumstance as "OK". It is damn dangerious. I know of more falls on water ice out in the desert in a few short years than in all my years of climbing ice and living in Canada. One of the longest alpine falls I've heard of was on ice/mixed in WA. 300+ feet! When a ice plate sublaminated off the rock picks still intact. My take on this is "we" are really lucky. And remember there is no Warden Service out there to help you out of a bind. You are going to be on your own.

 

But think about this. When I lived in Spokane and there was snow on the ground in town, we could climb in T shirts at Vantage. Living in Issaquah now, in the never ending rain, we can often get in some good ice within a 20 min drive and a few minutes walk on the pass or have decent ice and a 40 or even 50 degree temp change out in the desert area.

 

Things change so fast and radically between either side of the state. Ice can be safe and climbable one day and gone the next anywhere in WA. It changes that fast.....let me repeat myself.. it chages that fast.

 

We have all heard of entire climbs falling down and sometimes with people on them or very close by with tragic results.

 

Roadside ice climbing isn't sport climbing for the masses. If in doubt stay off the stuff and find something that at least seems safer. Many folks will never have the time let alone put it in to really understand what is happening with snow and ice conditions. Keeping up with conditions on a daily basis is impossible unless you are out there everyday. Sharing the info on the Internet helps us all thankfully!

 

intuition, the sense that is not rooted in anything as concrete as physics or experience?

 

If you have little or nothing to rely for your own judgement calls remember to use and rely on your own INTUITION, your innate 6th sense. If it feels bad, it most likely is. (that covers all kinds of personal safety circumstances outside climbing as well) Walk away while you can. You can always climb another day. Even with years of experience and study that is how the best Alpinists stay alive. Trust your own instincts. Be careful and thoughtful of what you are doing.

At its heart ice climbing is a thinking man's game.

 

And while you are at it, have fun

 

[summitchaserCJB]

Good or bad judgement in climbing is generally decided by one thing...coming back unharmed or not. If you live through it unharmed most will say, "that was good judgement." When you look deeper what happens inbetween might make you think otherwise.

 

 

 

True. Some people get very lucky.