foraker Posted February 7, 2007 Posted February 7, 2007 is this true? You think right and wrong were made up by individuals in different Socio-cultural constructs? and if so where did the concepts come from? absolutely. any good anthropologist will tell you that there are very few shared concepts of what is right and wrong between different cultures. what makes you think all of our ethics post-date the Bible? what makes you think all of our ethics have anything to do with religion whatsoever and not with simple social parsimony? Quote
Seahawks Posted February 7, 2007 Posted February 7, 2007 concepts came from humans once we had the lingual/cognitive complexity required to develop them. So we made them up?? If we came from animals they don't have these. How did we get them? Quote
tvashtarkatena Posted February 7, 2007 Posted February 7, 2007 THERE'S ANOTHER ONE!!! ENEMIES AT THE GATE! THEY'RE EVERYWHERE!!!!! Seagal you've been around Kevbone to long, spewing shit that doesn't even make sense. Yes you are right! Atheists should be lumped in with "pedofilers". Cause everyone knows that doesn't happen when you have God in your life!! Must...not...touch...the children... Quote
foraker Posted February 7, 2007 Posted February 7, 2007 concepts came from humans once we had the lingual/cognitive complexity required to develop them. So we made them up?? If we came from animals they don't have these. How did we get them? We makes up lots of things like art and mathematics and machinery and we didn't get any of those from the animals either. It's called creativity and intelligence. You might have heard of them. Quote
tvashtarkatena Posted February 7, 2007 Posted February 7, 2007 (edited) This is a bunch of relativistic hooey. Well, last time I checked we do live in a relativistic universe. Edited February 7, 2007 by tvashtarkatena Quote
sexual_chocolate Posted February 7, 2007 Posted February 7, 2007 concepts came from humans once we had the lingual/cognitive complexity required to develop them. So we made them up?? If we came from animals they don't have these. How did we get them? we didn't "come from" animals dude, we ARE animals. the game continues. do you really think we are the end of the line? Quote
greenfork Posted February 7, 2007 Posted February 7, 2007 any good anthropologist will tell you that there are very few shared concepts of what is right and wrong between different cultures. Really! *very* few shared concepts? CS Lewis (atheist turned Christian) makes the argument that the incredible similarity of right and wrong across cultures points to proof of a God. I don't buy the link, but I think it's one of those things where you can say, "oh, there are striking differences" but also "oh, there are striking similarities"... Quote
foraker Posted February 7, 2007 Posted February 7, 2007 ok, maybe not *very* few. but certainly not *a lot*. but we are hardly all a big judeo-christian brotherhood. if I'm not mistaken, is CS Lewis *not* an anthropologist? or do you think he's seeing similarities where he wants them to be (being he's a christian and all)? just a question..... Quote
sexual_chocolate Posted February 7, 2007 Posted February 7, 2007 here's another tail shot. i guess it's actually pretty common, even with the medieval christian attempts to eradicate those born with them. Quote
StevenSeagal Posted February 7, 2007 Posted February 7, 2007 Take what most would probably say is one of the easiest to agree upon concept of right and wrong- that it's wrong to kill, for example. Yet every culture will justify some form of killing if it serves some "higher purpose" or for a "greater benefit", etc. etc. Hence 100,000 civilian casualties in a war can be dismissed as "justified" since the war is already justified as "necessary" and "that's just what happens in war". And the death penalty- some who murder get 20 years. Others get the chair. Here at least, it depends on how good a lawyer you have, what color you are (did I say that?), and what color the victim was (did I say that?). And how rich the victim was. So even the concept that killing is wrong is obviously not an absolute. If you think God implanted this concept in us, then apparently killing each other is part of God's plan, because he already knows everything we are going to do. Some followers of Islam seem to think God wants them to kill all non-believers for his glory, yet Islam also prescribes that killing is a capital offense. So even the right and wrong of killing seems muddy. Is anything really absolute? Quote
tvashtarkatena Posted February 7, 2007 Posted February 7, 2007 (edited) Let's take "pedofilers" (cycling secretaries?) as an example. Man boy love was common and accepted in ancient Greece. Marriages between an adult and an early or pre-teen are still common in many countries today. In the U.S., however, most states have statutes protecting children younger than 18 from the advances of their elders. In each instance different societies determine, codify, and sometimes change what is considered right or wrong with regaards to one of the most fundamental forms of human interaction. Or take murder. Brazil is infamous for turning a blind eye to "crimes of passion" when a husband kills his wife. Our own society often turns a blind eye to the murder of innocents during warfare with it's "Sorry, shit happens" excuse. Yet that very same society would consider public stoning for infidelity, proscribed by law in some Middle Eastern countries, murder. Here again we see moral relativism with regards to one of the most fundamental norms of human behavior. Bringing the issue down to the personal level, we all must decide how we will behave. After all, "right or wrong" is about behaviour, not just thoughts. It doesn't matter whether one follows a religious or secular code of ethics, we are all burdened with the responsibility of deciding how to act. Religious leaders are free to decide whether or not to rape children, and atheists are free to decide whether or not to rape religious leaders. Edited February 7, 2007 by tvashtarkatena Quote
kevbone Posted February 7, 2007 Posted February 7, 2007 So even the right and wrong of killing seems muddy. Is anything really absolute? Yes....the fact that right and wrong exists only in your mind. Quote
JosephH Posted February 7, 2007 Posted February 7, 2007 concepts came from humans once we had the lingual/cognitive complexity required to develop them. So we made them up?? If we came from animals they don't have these. How did we get them? We makes up lots of things like art and mathematics and machinery and we didn't get any of those from the animals either. It's called creativity and intelligence. You might have heard of them. Actually, most animals have an instinctive notion of math including calculus and some animals possess a cognitive awareness of basic math concepts. Some primates even do commerce innately once they grasp the concept of a token which can be exchanged for food (they instantly invented prostitution). It is yet more enduring anthropomorphic myth that we alone possess emotions, creativity, and intelligence - a more accurate way to think of the expression of these attributes would be as a sliding scale with us on the top wrung exhibiting them in abundance. Quote
rob Posted February 7, 2007 Posted February 7, 2007 Actually, most animals have an instinctive notion of math including calculus Reference? Quote
JosephH Posted February 7, 2007 Posted February 7, 2007 Hey, you're an intelligent human - google 'animals math' Quote
tvashtarkatena Posted February 7, 2007 Posted February 7, 2007 (edited) Hey, you're an intelligent human - google 'animals math' Man, Ah don' know 'bout mah dawg doin' no Foiyay Ser's Diffrenchal E-quashuns, butt he sho got me huppin to when he need feedin. He gots de E-quashun "1 + 1 = FEED MY ASS" down real good. Edited February 7, 2007 by tvashtarkatena Quote
JayB Posted February 7, 2007 Posted February 7, 2007 concepts came from humans once we had the lingual/cognitive complexity required to develop them. So we made them up?? If we came from animals they don't have these. How did we get them? Group cooperation has been strongly selected for in evolution, and the shared behaviors that govern the behavior of social animals are every bit as much the product of natural selection as their eyes, ears, fur, etc. Show me a social animal, wolves, lions, monkeys, or even social organisms like ants, and I'll show you a very strict set of behavioral norms that govern their interaction. Most of our most fundamental moral instincts - don't eat your children, etc - are the product of our evolutionary inheritance, rather than abstract reasoning. Once the capacity for abstract reasoning emerged, so did the capacity to refine and modify the behavioral code that we inherited - but our morals are no more the product of pure reason than our bone structure is. Quote
billcoe Posted February 7, 2007 Posted February 7, 2007 Hey, you're an intelligent human - google 'animals math' Looks like I'll have to buy a program to get up to speed here. Quote
tvashtarkatena Posted February 7, 2007 Posted February 7, 2007 Actually, most animals have an instinctive notion of math including calculus and some animals possess a cognitive awareness of basic math concepts. Some primates even do commerce innately once they grasp the concept of a token which can be exchanged for food (they instantly invented prostitution). It is yet more enduring anthropomorphic myth that we alone possess emotions, creativity, and intelligence - a more accurate way to think of the expression of these attributes would be as a sliding scale with us on the top wrung exhibiting them in abundance. I got through engineering school with a TI 72 and a pocket vole that could solve linear equations like nobody's business. Quote
tvashtarkatena Posted February 7, 2007 Posted February 7, 2007 Actually, most animals have an instinctive notion of math including calculus and some animals possess a cognitive awareness of basic math concepts. Some primates even do commerce innately once they grasp the concept of a token which can be exchanged for food (they instantly invented prostitution). It is yet more enduring anthropomorphic myth that we alone possess emotions, creativity, and intelligence - a more accurate way to think of the expression of these attributes would be as a sliding scale with us on the top wrung exhibiting them in abundance. I got through engineering school with a TI 72 and a pocket vole that could solve linear equations like nobody's business. I finally had to get rid of it, though, because it had the annoying habit of gnawing on my nipple during tests. Quote
foraker Posted February 7, 2007 Posted February 7, 2007 I finally had to get rid of it, though, because it had the annoying habit of gnawing on my nipple during tests. Isn't that why you bought it? Quote
tvashtarkatena Posted February 7, 2007 Posted February 7, 2007 It seems that high functioning voles have been bred as much for their competitive aggressiveness as for their math skilz. This thing would go ape when another vole was present in the lecture hall. Finally, it turned on it's hapless owner. We finally had to part ways in the men's room of Math Building... Quote
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