JayB Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 11/14 Just bringing this sucker back up to the top after reading many posts on taxes, Israelis vs. Palestinians, etc. I hereby propose the following tax: For every five posts you make concerning the topics mentioned above, and/or gun control, property rights, etc. one must post one useful piece of climbing info/beta/lore in this thread or a related counterpart. Howdy: There's been quite a bit of discussion surrounding the potential modes of gear failure and other aspects of climbing safety in the thread concerned with Goran's tragic death at the coulee. This got me thinking, and it seems like this might be a good time to move some elements of that discussion to a separate thread dedicated those topics. I suspect anyone who's been climbing for a while has had occasion to look back at the way that they did things when they first started climbing -or became involved with a new aspect of the sport - and shudder just a bit. At the very least I imagine that nearly everyone has discovered that there are better or safer ways to do things than the way that they originally learned or were taught. That got me thinking about some of the things that I've learned along the way that might be useful to someone else who's just starting out. I'm also pretty confident that there's still alot that I can learn from folks who have been at it a lot longer than I have. So, if you have changed the way you do things for the better, you had a close call that you walked away from, or just some general pointers that you think your fellow climbers could benefit from - why not share them here? The techniques you discuss might seem obvious or redundant to most of the regulars here, but I suspect there are quite a few folks who skim through this site that might benefit from what you have to say. I'm neither a pro nor anything close to a hardman, but I do try like to challenge myself while climbing as safely as I can, and feel like I've learned a useful trick or two while I've been at it, so I'll get things started. Hopefully someone will find some of this stuff useful: Trad: 1. Plug in more gear at the start of the climb. When you're just off of the deck you've got less rope out and the impact force on your gear will be higher if you fall down low. Once you get some distance between yourself and the belayer you can run it out a bit more between each placement. 2. Use an auto locking belay device to bring up seconds. I started out belaying seconds with an ATC because that's all I had. Now I use a reverso or a gri-gri and it makes it much easier for me to safely manage the rope at the belay while bringing up the second. If you are belaying off of the anchor (in general, but especially with an auto locking device) it will also make it much easier to escape the belay and begin self-rescue if your partner gets in trouble. I generally belay off of the anchor unless the best anchor that I've been able to construct doesn't inspire as much confidence as I'd like and I want to mitigate the stress on the anchor with my body - or it's just too akward to belay directly from the anchor. 3. Have your gear ready for the crux. If there's a good rest stance directly below the crux or a tough part I'll take a closer look at the crack and get the gear I'll need ready before I commit so I can (hopefully)plug it in easily without futzing around with my rack too much. 4. Reset disrupted cams if you can. Ideally you'll always use runners of the appropriate length when you're leading and you'll never disrupt a cam that you've placed as you lead past it. I do my best to use runners appropriately, and it feels like I overuse runners sometimes, but it still happens every now and then. When I was starting out I would just rush on to the next placement. These days If I see this happen and it's still within reach I'll reach down and reset the cam for a downward pull and add a runner if necessary. If it's not within reach when I notice it and the climbing is casual I'll downclimb and do the same. If neither is possible then it gets more complicated. I'll add extra gear above it and either downclimb with the security of the toprope above me and reset the gear, or continue on if I'm confident that the rest of the gear below is good and I see lots of places to plug in gear above me on terrain that I know I can cover with very little risk of falling. Of course the second option is not as safe but it's the kind of judgement call you can expect to make fairly often when leading trad. The more you climb the more confident you'll feel with your choices. Ice. 1. Always place a good screw before you top out. It's tempting to get off of the scary stuff as quickly as possible andhead for the big tree with the slings or some other oasis of security that beckons beyond the easy ground atop an ice route. However, lots of times the ice just beyond the apex of an ice climb is horrible, unprotectable slushy crap. Take advantage of the last good ice that you can find and crank in a screw before you commit to clearing the bulge and/or the easy but unprotectable ground above it. 2. Never use your knees to clear a bulge. When you top out on an ice climb it's tempting to lurch over the edge and swing your tools as far onto the ledge as you can. Avoid this temptation as it will more or less force you to clamber over the top with your knees or shins in contact with the ice instead of your front points. Find good ice near or over the top of the climb to sink your tool into, work your front points up from below, then incrementally advance your tools away from the edge until you can step over the top and stink your crampon points onto the top of the ice instead of your slippery, goretex-clad knees. 3. Use half ropes and screamers. Much lower impact force on your screws, ergo much lower chance of the screw ripping if you fall. It should go without saying that you don't want to fall if you can help it. I've yet to take a lead fall on ice and hope to keep it that way. 4. If you'll be climbing waterfalls, get clearance shaft tools if you can afford them. There may be some folks out there who will argue this one, and there are tons of guys out there who have climbed insane stuff on straight-shafted tools, but as far as I'm concerned there's no contest if you'll be climbing picked out ice or clearing many bulges. I've spent the last two seasons climbing on straight-shafted prophets and dig these tools in general, but when dealing with honeycombed ice or bulges clearance shaft tools are just way more secure. If you're a good enough ice climber I suppose it doesn't matter which tool you use, but must folks I know - especially those just starting out - find climbing with clearance shaft tools much more secure. 4. Buy screws that you can place quickly. My personal favorites are the Grivel 360s as I find I can place them much more quickly. I spend much less time preparing the ice on account of their floating handle, and find that I can crank them in much more quickly. Other folks prefer BD Express screws. In any event - buy screws with handles on the cranks if you'll be doing much leading on waterfalls. The faster you can get your screws in the happier you'll be. 5. Get one of those racking deals for your screws. There's a lot of different systems out there that work. Find something that will allow you to get your screws off of your harness and into your hands quickly. Nothing sucks more than desperately fumbling around with the gear on your harness with your numb hands when you're pumped silly and want nothing more than to get a screw in. I have three or four BD ice-clippers on my harness and that seems to work for me. Other ideas? [ 11-14-2002, 11:40 PM: Message edited by: JayB ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fence_Sitter Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 yes...i may sound like a mountie, but always verbally check double backs. i saw a guy take a fall who i noticed they didn't check each other on canary and took a lil screamer...i heard a schhhhh as the velcro came undone and the guy started screaming that his harness was comming off... luckily he was only .5 pitch up and was able to be slowly and smoothly down, but wow... how close was he to decking on those jagged rocks at the bottom? i yused to think things like taht were for geek mounties until i saw that and wow i will never not check my partner and insist that he checks me... [ 10-03-2002, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: Fence Sitter ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Fence Sitter: yes...i may sound like a mountie, but always verbally check double backs. i saw a guy take a fall who i noticed they didn't check each other on canary and took a lil screamer...i heard a schhhhh as the velcro came undone and the guy started screaming that his harness was comming off... luckily he was only .5 pitch up and was able to be slowly and smoothly down, but wow... how close was he to decking on those jagged rocks at the bottom? i yused to think things like taht were for geek mounties until i saw that and wow i will never not check my partner and insist that he checks me... did you just smoke a bowl????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 Good stuff ya got there Jay. I new a kid who broke his back when he fell pulling over the buldge on a climb in Hylite canyon. He cam off with a huge diner plate and decked out, fell more that 100ft. One idea that comes to mind is this: be redundant with protection. On rock, if you are at all skeptical about your placement, rather than screw around trying to take it out, just put in another piece. That way you have two. Prhaps equalize them with a sling. If you are too pumped to put in another peice, and you know its only getting harder, we'll that might be the best time to back off. On Ice, using two 9 mil ropes I will often place two screws from one stance, with a seperate rope through each. The theory being that if the first one blows it should slow you down a bit, and you've got a fresh (non-loaded) rope to catch you at the next screw, without much slack out. Plus you might already have a good stance and be all set up to place screws, so double it up, then run it out with more confidence. I find myself doing this more the harder it gets. [ 10-03-2002, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: Lambone ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 DFA will lend his support to the verbal check/double-check routine. Making this a habit of your pre-climb routine cuts down on some of the most common accident causing mistakes, like improperly hooked up belay devices or unlocked locking biners, and harness buckles and knots that aren't doubled back. Huge. It also keeps you in the habit of double-checking everything, like making sure the rope is through the chains and you're correctly attached to it before you unclip from your runners after cleaning a route. [ 10-03-2002, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: Dr Flash Amazing ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fence_Sitter Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 yah... man that was epic just recallin...epic on castle rock! opps got riled up ...need another bowl... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 hahaha erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scot'teryx Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 Thanks for all that info JayB It was some good reading for sure. Even though I have only been climbing trad for about 4 months now, I have been very obcessive about, and doing as much possible whenever I can. One thing that I can't do, is lead trad like I lead sport, it's just too hard for me - plus I have not taken a fall on my gear yet, so 5.8 is as hard as I will go for now, maybe staying comfortable is not living on the edge, but that's how I play the game for right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrible_ted Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 Hey J: I'm game. Reminds me of "Ooh La La" (I wish that I knew what I know now, when I was younger...) Gotta love old Rod Stewert... Belay off the belay loop if you have one. Tie your personal anchor around both harness loops, not just the waist band. Protect traverses heavily, not just at the crux. Your second is going to pull out pro and be faced with a pendulum if they screw up the move... When setting running belays while simulclimbing, get a second piece in before the follower gets to the first. That way you always have something in when EITHER of you is facing a difficult move. Learn how to travel in coils properly. Looping ten lengths of rope around your neck without knotting it back into the harness means rescuers face coming across two dead climbers: one fallen, and the other whose head got popped off! Make your first placement early, and use it to direct where the force comes onto your belayer. My rule is: the first one is for you, and all the rest are for me. Don't bullshit your old lady about how "safe" you are when you're on ice... it ain't safe - that's part of why it's so damn fun... Assume every piece you place is marginal. -t [ 10-03-2002, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: terrible ted ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AA Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 Thanks for the topic JayB!! This is especially great for us *me* who is starting lead in both realms.. The myriad of styles/opinions is good to know! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 carry a small screw on your harness on wet glacier. you can unweight the line if you pitch in and your partner is having trouble holding you by cranking the screw into the crevasse wall, which will always be ice. gives your partner time to set some good pickets rather than desperate ones. don't try to do the Twight action suit thing if your partners are not also doing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 Yup, I can sometimes be heard talking to myself, "check my knot." I'm something of a coelacanth of the climbing world, having learned in the days of hip belays, goldline, and Robbins blue boots. I always attach the belay device to my harness, and myself to the anchor, and set myself with a stance that minimizes the actual load on the anchor. I'm also very fond of an anchor for the belayer, even at the base of sport routes, perhaps because I often outweigh my belayer, but also because having a belayer tied in shortens the leader's fall. I do sometimes like the "place two pieces instead of one" and place gear frequently right after leaving the belay" ideas that others have mentioned. Particluarly if it has been a long ways between placements, I think it would really be a bummer to have that piece pull, so I'll place another nearby. I also really hate the thought of falling right on the belay, and want some pieces between me and that kind of a test. I usually carry a largish rack as well, preferring to have it and not need it as opposed to needing it and not having it. Another side topic attached to this whole issue is reconsidering advice offered on this site a few months ago about overcoming fear by intentionally falling on your gear. I have a really hard time overcoming my trad upbringing with the whole "the leader must not fall" agenda. I'm sure it keeps me from pushing my limits, but an incident like the recent one does nothing to make me want to change my ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottP Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 At frequent intervals along the way - leading, following, belaying - ask yourself "What's the result if X happens?" "Get impaled by that spike of granite down there?" "Slam into that corner over there?" "Get cut in two if JimmyJoeBillyBob pulls off that flake?" etc. Visualize the nasty stuff in advance to avoid it if it happens. Oh, and know how to escape a belay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paco Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 The beauty of leading trad with half ropes is that the impact force on the gear is reduced and that you can minimize fall potentials. I think that using half ropes is a great way to safely push your trad climbing limits. Place gear, climb up. When the gear is at your waste you can place another piece above you, clip with the other rope, and continue, effectively top roping the climb. Under this situation your fall potential is minimized because you are not really above your last piece, even when you pull up the rope to clip your next piece. You can place the next piece as high above you as you can reach, and not have to worry about taking a big fall when you pull up lots of slack rope to make the next clip. No shame in stitching up a route. Also, there's nothing wrong with placing a piece, clipping it, climbing up so its at your waste/thighs, placing another piece higher up, clipping it, and then removing the lower piece to place later on the climb. Just because a piece is placed once doesn't mean that it can't be taken out and placed higher up. You just want to make sure that you do leave adequate gear for the entire pitch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 If you're hauling a pack on one line and jugging with the other, don't have your ice-axes on the outside of the pack. Jugging up to that stuck pack with your jug line bouncing around those sharp pointy things can be pretty unnerving. Never break more than one law at a time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Parker Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 quote: Originally posted by JayB: Howdy: Ice. 1. Always place a good screw before you top out. It's tempting to get off of the scary stuff as quickly as possible andhead for the big tree with the slings or some other oasis of security that beckons beyond the easy ground atop an ice route. However, lots of times the ice just beyond the apex of an ice climb is horrible, unprotectable slushy crap. Take advantage of the last good ice that you can find and crank in a screw before you commit to clearing the bulge and/or the easy but unprotectable ground above it. 2. Never use your knees to clear a bulge. When you top out on an ice climb it's tempting to lurch over the edge and swing your tools as far onto the ledge as you can. Avoid this temptation as it will more or less force you to clamber over the top with your knees or shins in contact with the ice instead of your front points. Find good ice near or over the top of the climb to sink your tool into, work your front points up from below, then incrementally advance your tools away from the edge until you can step over the top and stink your crampon points onto the top of the ice instead of your slippery, goretex-clad knees. This is good stuff and where I think many mistakes are made. This is also why I won't use any leash system that prevents me from grabbing the head of the tool. Too many ice climbers think you always have to hold the tool at the bottom of the shaft only. A couple solid tool placements on top of the bulge can get you a long way and help you manage your feet properly. As I move up, I slide my hands up and "mantle" off the tool heads. Sometimes my feet will be right there next to my tools when I finish. Often you can then just stand up and walk. You don't have to worry about making tool placements in the slushy/snowy stuff with insecure placements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt_Anderson Posted October 4, 2002 Share Posted October 4, 2002 I'm not a big believer in absolutes, blindly following rules generally teaches you to turn off the brain and stop using good judgment, nonetheless, there are a few simple ways to stay alive: Everytime you or your partner start to climb ask to double check the double back, the knot and the belay device. Never speak to someone while they are tying in or putting on their harness. Its to easy for them to want to respond and stop the process in the middle. Always have two things keeping you alive (note the following exceptions - one rope, one belay device, one belay biner - make sure those items are "beyond question"): two pieces of pro keeping you of the deck, two biners/pieces of pro in an anchor. Some people feel ok with a single, bomber anchor, (one rap ring, one rap biner, etc) when lowering. If that fits your personal risk aversion level that's your choice. But people have died that way - They died because the risk was worth less than butning a biner or snap link. [ 10-03-2002, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: Matt Anderson ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted October 4, 2002 Share Posted October 4, 2002 Another one: Check your rope once in a while. Couple years ago, DFA was out at Smith with the Misses. We had warmed up, then the Doctor went to put the draws up on the lady's project. The Doctor had the rope, and tied in while the Misses dug out the draws. DFA was absently messing with the rope a few feet from the sharp end, looking at some wear on the sheath. Upon bending the rope sharply at the wear spot, the Doctor was horrified to see the sheath split and the core spill out. This was astonishing, as the rope had been lead on using that end that very morning, and fortunately hadn't taken any falls. Fortunately, the rest of the rope was OK, but it was quite unnerving, to say the least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted October 4, 2002 Share Posted October 4, 2002 Always put gear in as soon as you can when leave the belay on multi pitch so you dont factor-2 onto the belay anchor. Remember, gear doesnt help if you hit the ground. So, lets say you climb up 10 feet and put in your first piece, when you have climbed to 17 or 18 feet up you are back in groundfall territory with rope stretch, so put something else in and so on. I try usually to have at least 3 pieces between me and the ground, except for all the times i dont - ok, if i think im gonna whip i sew it up. how about that. short ice screws are just as strong as long ones in good ice, are faster to place and you dont have to use dangerous tie-offs. dont ever buy a whole rack of 22cms.you will regret it. Always make sure your partner carries the beer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted October 4, 2002 Author Share Posted October 4, 2002 Good stuff folks. I forgot the stuff about you and your partner checking one another out at the base of the climb to insure that your knot is tied properly and your harness has been threaded through the buckle correctly. I was ice climbing last winter and undid my harness to take a leak and only discovered that I had failed to double it back when I topped out. Not just stupid - we're talking Darwin awards material for sure. I'm very fotunate that nothing happened, and needless to say the experience reinforced the importance on focusing on the fundatmentals. It's just so easy to get complacent or distracted if you're not religious about some of these things. Anchoring at the base of a climb is another good issue to bring up. I don't see it as much at trad areas, but at sport venues I see quite a few unanchored belayers lingering 10-15 feet out from the base of the route that their leader is ascending. If you've got a BMI on par with Elvis in his Vegas days and you're belaying someone with the physique of an Ethiopian supermodel it might not be such a big deal, but if your weights are even close to equal and the leader whips down low the odds are good that you'll get dragged violently to the base of the climb -maybe even a few feet up it - and may even lose control of the rope, all the while adding several feet to your leaders fall. This again is an area where I learned the hard way. I was out with some newer folks and volunteered to put up a top rope on a climb I'd never lead before. One of the climbers in the party claimed to know the rating and put it at about a 5.9, so I wasn't worried. It was actually way closer to an 11, and at seventh bolt I peeled off while bringing up rope to clip with. I fell right through the zone where I was expecting the rope to go tight, and fell right past another 5 bolts on the way down. I could have shaken my belayers hand, seeing as he had been yanked about 12 feet across the trail and about 5 feet up the wall. Thankfully I had him use a Gri-Gri, as both of his hands were off of the rope. It was a nice soft catch, which was nice, but I would have much rather had my fall arrested a few feet higher off of the ground. Other things this experience brings to mind: 1.If you're not anchored stay close to the wall - but not directly beneath your leader. This is often what I'll do when belaying I'm belaying a trad leader and don't want to introduce any additional forces onto the gear he/she's placed. 2. Consider anchoring if it looks as though there's a roof or some other blunt object looming above you that you might get sucked into if your leader pitches. 3. Consider wearing a helmet when you are belaying - especially in areas with loose rock like Vantage. I remember reading a horrible account somewhere about a guy belaying a leader at the feathers who got hit with a rock that his leader dislodged. Not only did the rock pierce his skull, but after this happened he naturally released his grip on the rock and the leader landed on him from like 30 feet up. Thankfully the belayer lived, but I sure hope nothing like that happens to anyone else out there. [ 10-03-2002, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: JayB ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plexus Posted October 4, 2002 Share Posted October 4, 2002 • Double checking the knots, double-back and tie-in spot. I've topped out and looked down to realize that I only went through one loop in tying in. • When belaying a sport route, stay close to the base of the climb until the person gets to third bolt, this saves them from hitting the line if they fall. • tie-in belay at base of trad climbs and wear a helmet. • Never letting a newbie belay me on a lead. There ain't no way in hell!! • Never take route-descriptions at face value, especially in the mountains. (Follow the obvious gully to a short class 4 step. My ass!!!) • Always have a few beers waiting at the truck after tagging the summit and getting down safely. Never celebrate too much on top. It's getting down that'll probably kill you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbcracken Posted October 4, 2002 Share Posted October 4, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Paco: The beauty of leading trad with half ropes is that the impact force on the gear is reduced and that you can minimize fall potentials. I think that using half ropes is a great way to safely push your trad climbing limits. . I have to second this opinion. While climbing on a set of half ropes, one is really setting up two rope systems. If one fails, the other one is there as a back up and has not been loaded or stressed. When a piece fails under a loaded situation, the rope might not have the time to disipate the energy and recover its elasticity before another shock is initiated. A set of twins gives a climber that cushion. Long runners are a must on marginal placements. I typically leave all my sport draws behind on an apline outing. SImulclimbing- On my last trip to NR of Stuart, we used one 50m 8.5mm rope. Light enought to travel fast. I tied into both ends and Ade tied into the middle with a figure eight. It was an idea that I had found here. This worked great. Keep us close for communication. Gave us two rope systems between us. Reduced rope drag and we didn't have to climb with any loops of ropes around our necks. -Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeclimb9 Posted October 4, 2002 Share Posted October 4, 2002 Summary: protect your partner, protect yourself. It ain't rocket science, skippy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-rock Posted October 4, 2002 Share Posted October 4, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Paco: The beauty of leading trad with half ropes is that the impact force on the gear is reduced and that you can minimize fall potentials. I think that using half ropes is a great way to safely push your trad climbing limits. Place gear, climb up. When the gear is at your waste you can place another piece above you, clip with the other rope, and continue, effectively top roping the climb.... Paco, don't want to be a dick by disagreeing with you, and I admit this is probably a matter of personal taste, but I think in general it is best to place gear between waist and chest level. That way you can easily inspect your placement, and you don't plug a #2 camalot into a solid hand-jam until AFTER you've jammed it. I do agree though that this two rope technique is wise for the first 20 feet of a difficult crack so that you don't deck while you've got a loop out. I guess I'd have to say that if anything I've learned about leading that seemed at first counter-intuitive it is "don't reach too far above you to place gear". [ 10-03-2002, 08:14 PM: Message edited by: E-rock ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted October 4, 2002 Share Posted October 4, 2002 Hang on harder. Retreat before you get in over your head. Put in more gear than you think is necessary and never push to the point of being required to trust it. Don't guide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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