Discovery pass ticket.

[AlpineK]

Every one of you who are so miserably cheap you have to try and scam around it instead of dropping the staggering sum of $30 a year for WA parks should just stay out of them.

 

Basically what this says is you want to keep the riff-raff or poor people out of state parks.

 

$30 user fee, no big deal huh. Pick two folks, Sucka makes $15000/ year and Joe makes $300000 per year. Lets see 30 divided by 15000 or 300000. .2% vs .01%. Shit .2% is nothing you've still got 99.8 percent left to blow.

 

No big deal huh? Wait a minute -Income Tax, -Food, -Housing, -Health Care, - Sales Tax, - Public Utilities... Hmm, I think Sucka realizes why he received his given name.

 

I worked hard to earn this

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Every one of you who are so miserably cheap you have to try and scam around it instead of dropping the staggering sum of $30 a year for WA parks should just stay out of them.

 

Basically what this says is you want to keep the riff-raff or poor people out of state parks.

 

$30 user fee, no big deal huh. Pick two folks, Sucka makes $15000/ year and Joe makes $300000 per year. Lets see 30 divided by 15000 or 300000. .2% vs .01%. Shit .2% is nothing you've still got 99.8 percent left to blow.

 

No big deal huh? Wait a minute -Income Tax, -Food, -Housing, -Health Care, - Sales Tax, - Public Utilities... Hmm, I think Sucka realizes why he received his given name.

 

I worked hard to earn this

 

There is another angle to this, Feck. If the state charges a fee to use a park, then that makes it seem a lot like a private company charging a fee... and the difference is lost. This could allow for it to be easier for parks to be privatized as the public will see little difference in a fee-based access to something they want. By keeping parks "free"* this scenario will be less likely to occur.

 

Also, consider the problems we have in this country related to obesity. The state should do all it can to make recreation as available and cheap as possible. Closing the doors to parks, and charging fees that the poor can't afford or which at least are unwilling to pay for (and there is a coorelation between poor and obesity), well, this is harmful and stupid.

 

*yes, they cost money, duh, but funding parks through taxes in place makes it seem free, and is at least not usage-based and obvious that you pay for it...

[dougd]

Not only did they not get my $30 for this bullshit pass they've missed out on all the other tourist dollars I would have spent there, as well as the dollars from several other people that I know of that think this whole thing is bullshit and just another way to rape the public.

 

This Washingtonian thinks our state will survive just fine without your "tourist dollars", your "facilities inspections", and, your incessant complaining.

 

I propose a "whiney baby" forum be added to cc.com. It would be a catch all for this type of "discussion". It shouldn't be in a climbing forum IMO... I'll nominate KirkW to be the moderator of this new forum.

 

Mods? Please?

 

d

 

 

I don't think, in this case, that there was much,if any, whining coming from KirkW. Nor do find the TR he linked whiny at all; rather, I thought it showed with ridiculous irony how f-ed up this whole fee situation is. . ie, a new shitter, closed, w/glorious signage all over, along w/ piles of shit some dog owner didn't feel like carting back in their car. Surprised someone didn't take a shit at the foot of the closed restroom door. .

And, he brought up some good points: if people stop going to such and such a trailhead(s), due to shelling out the monies, the immediate area can suffer a decrease in $$.

My cousin still goes to Hamilton, and he says he's noticed a visible difference in the number of cars now parked in the lot. This may or may not make a too much of a difference on the local economy, but I can't help think that the little stores, gas stations, etc, in any given area, now would lose a few $ w/ the loss of people going to any given trailhead. .

 

You don't think, in this case, that there was much, if any, whining coming from KrikW?

 

Really? ... For the record, my suggestion for a new forum, and nomination for mod thereof still stands.

 

Further, I suggest the solution to funding our beloved parks lies not user fees and parking passes, but in allowing our elected representatives make the decisions on taxing and spending based on majority rule as was done in the past and as our State Constitution mandates. Super majorities only empower a minority to block anything and everything including raising revenue for the greater good of a state, or nation. Like it or not we ARE in this together.

 

As long as we prefer representative government, this is how it works best. Sometimes, some must give more so that everyone can benefit.

 

Privatize the parks? Are you sure this is what you want? Trust corporate America with our beloved parks now???

 

Count me out.

 

d

[JayB]

In the matter of priorities, the stand out one is whether Washingtonians want parks or not because the system has been bled to death over the past decade with no end in site. Staffing has been cut across the board twice now and while they have worked there asses off to stave off park closures, they have no further ability to do so. In the next round of cuts, parks will be closing.

 

Plot of State Budgets from 1999-2011 below.

http://davepaisley.typepad.com/.a/6a00d834547c1469e20147e17e35fe970b-pi

 

-I agree with your conclusions. Service cuts are *vastly* more likely than substantive reforms that address the main drivers of spending/cost growth at rates that exceed revenue growth.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JayB]

Not only did they not get my $30 for this bullshit pass they've missed out on all the other tourist dollars I would have spent there, as well as the dollars from several other people that I know of that think this whole thing is bullshit and just another way to rape the public.

 

This Washingtonian thinks our state will survive just fine without your "tourist dollars", your "facilities inspections", and, your incessant complaining.

 

I propose a "whiney baby" forum be added to cc.com. It would be a catch all for this type of "discussion". It shouldn't be in a climbing forum IMO... I'll nominate KirkW to be the moderator of this new forum.

 

Mods? Please?

 

d

 

 

I don't think, in this case, that there was much,if any, whining coming from KirkW. Nor do find the TR he linked whiny at all; rather, I thought it showed with ridiculous irony how f-ed up this whole fee situation is. . ie, a new shitter, closed, w/glorious signage all over, along w/ piles of shit some dog owner didn't feel like carting back in their car. Surprised someone didn't take a shit at the foot of the closed restroom door. .

And, he brought up some good points: if people stop going to such and such a trailhead(s), due to shelling out the monies, the immediate area can suffer a decrease in $$.

My cousin still goes to Hamilton, and he says he's noticed a visible difference in the number of cars now parked in the lot. This may or may not make a too much of a difference on the local economy, but I can't help think that the little stores, gas stations, etc, in any given area, now would lose a few $ w/ the loss of people going to any given trailhead. .

 

You don't think, in this case, that there was much, if any, whining coming from KrikW?

 

Really? ... For the record, my suggestion for a new forum, and nomination for mod thereof still stands.

 

Further, I suggest the solution to funding our beloved parks lies not user fees and parking passes, but in allowing our elected representatives make the decisions on taxing and spending based on majority rule as was done in the past and as our State Constitution mandates. Super majorities only empower a minority to block anything and everything including raising revenue for the greater good of a state, or nation. Like it or not we ARE in this together.

 

As long as we prefer representative government, this is how it works best. Sometimes, some must give more so that everyone can benefit.

 

Privatize the parks? Are you sure this is what you want? Trust corporate America with our beloved parks now???

 

Count me out.

 

d

 

Just out of curiosity - what substantive difference would it make to the average visitor if the persons collecting the entrance fees, writing tickets, and conducting maintenance are contractors rather than direct state employees?

 

 

 

 

[dougd]

Just out of curiosity - what substantive difference would it make to the average visitor if the persons collecting the entrance fees, writing tickets, and conducting maintenance are contractors rather than direct state employees?

 

Probably none. I suppose any "substantive difference" might only be to the employees, and their families, who do not have the State jobs with accompanying benefit packages anymore... A fast disappearing breed of job in todays society... Not necessarily a bad thing IMO to have certain parks contracts for services competitively bid as long as previously bargained/signed contracts are honored.

 

My question about a corporate takeover of the parks was related to dhrmabum's inference that "Wasn't it George W's intention to privatize forest recreation?" Posting something like that begs a multitude of questions...

[JosephH]

Just did some checking around - WSP is still receiving some general funds - which rather than being simply shut off this biennium as some sites have incorrectly stated are instead being tapered down over three bienniums from 66% of the WSP budget to 12% of their budget.

 

 

State Parks Commission announces special meeting to discuss current spending plan, next budget request

 

OLYMPIA – June 13, 2012 – The Washington State Parks and Recreation Commission is calling a special meeting next week in Olympia to discuss its spending plan for the remainder of the current budget cycle and to begin identifying priorities for the agency’s 2013-15 budget request, due in September.

 

The meeting is scheduled for 9 a.m. to 1 p.m. Monday, June 18, at the Washington State Parks Headquarters, 1111 Israel Road S.W., Olympia, in the Environmental and Land Use Hearings Office on the third floor. A Commission meeting agenda is available online at www.parks.wa.gov/agency/commissionmeetings/. Time for public comment will be provided.

 

In the 2012 session, the Legislature transferred $4 million to State Parks from a state Aquatic Lands Enhancement Account, for operations and maintenance of parks as the Commission works to implement a new funding structure, which relies significantly upon sales of the Discover Pass. The Legislature made clear that the $4 million in aquatic lands enhancement funds is a one-time transfer from the Recreation Conservation Funding Board-administered grant funds, specifically to be used to operate and maintain state parks as the Commission implements new revenue sources to become more self-supporting.

 

The Commission will consider authorizing expenditure of approximately $3 million of the funds for the following priorities:

• Health and safety – Maintenance, equipment, forest health and training

• Additional revenue generation – Marketing through advertising, events and promotions; costs to provide greater WIFI service.

• Efficiency improvements, including purchase of automated ticket machines, maintenance management software and energy audits – all of which improve efficiency, save on staff time and avoid costs.

 

Washington State Parks has gone through a radical shift in the way it is funded. The Legislature determined that the state park system would primarily be funded through fees for service rather than general fund tax dollars. In the 2007-09 biennium, State Parks received 66 percent of its operating budget from taxes; in 2009-11, it received 30 percent of funding from taxes, and in the current biennium is receiving only 12 percent of its budget from taxes.

 

During the recession and to help the agency move away from tax funding, the Legislature has worked to provide replacement funding sources for State Parks, including a donation program tied to vehicle license renewals – and the Discover Pass, a $30 access pass implemented in July 2011. The Discover Pass is now required to visit state parks and other state recreation lands managed by the Department of Fish and Wildlife and the Department of Natural Resources.

 

Because the Discover Pass was announced and launched quickly last summer, first-year revenues did not come in as high as projected, leaving State Parks $11 million short of balancing its budget. In February, State Parks used some of its reserve funding and donations, then reduced staffing and programs by $8 million, shifting approximately one-third of field staff from full-time, year-round, to seasonal in order to meet public service needs during the busy visitor season, May through September.

 

Though the Commission has been told by the Legislature to expect “zero” general fund tax revenues in the 2013-15 biennium, the Commission has stated it believes that the state should provide some level of support. Staff is asking the Commission to consider requesting $9 to $10.5 million in general fund to cover the costs of special pass programs mandated by the Legislature. These programs require State Parks to provide discounted or free passes to certain groups, including disabled veterans and limited-income seniors who qualify. The Commission may consider a larger general fund request to fund a higher service level.

 

In addition, the Commission will consider priorities from a list of approximately $40 million worth of projects from several categories:

• Public and employee health and safety, through utility and facility upgrade, repair or replacement

• Projects that allow regulatory environmental and health compliance

• Projects with potential to enhance or generate new revenue

• Historic preservation needs

 

Images from the WSP Financial Overview (Updated September 2011)

 

[ 2005-2007 General Fund contribution to WSP was $97mil and in 2011-2013 is down to $17mil - a loss of $70mil in funding ]

 

 

 

 

Go here (Item E-8) for a comparison of OSP and WSP relative to acres under management, staff, and budgets - basically the WSP does way more with way less on a per human and per dollar basis.

[Figger_Eight]

 

Just out of curiosity - what substantive difference would it make to the average visitor if the persons collecting the entrance fees, writing tickets, and conducting maintenance are contractors rather than direct state employees?

 

 

 

 

In my experience, a lot. Already many campground hosts around the state are not public employees, and the customer service I've seen left a lot to be desired.

[KirkW]

Not only did they not get my $30 for this bullshit pass they've missed out on all the other tourist dollars I would have spent there, as well as the dollars from several other people that I know of that think this whole thing is bullshit and just another way to rape the public.

 

This Washingtonian thinks our state will survive just fine without your "tourist dollars", your "facilities inspections", and, your incessant complaining.

 

I propose a "whiney baby" forum be added to cc.com. It would be a catch all for this type of "discussion". It shouldn't be in a climbing forum IMO... I'll nominate KirkW to be the moderator of this new forum.

 

Mods? Please?

 

d

 

 

Ya know Doug if I didn't know better I'd think you're pretty sick and tired of hearing my opinion. You are welcome to ignore it. It's not like I'm sending you PM's and protesting outside your house but you've accused me of whining so many times that it's making you look, well, kind of whiney.

 

I'm not sure what it is about my opinions specifically that puts sand in your panties but I'll go ahead and apologize if I've done something to personally offend you.

 

:kisss:

 

If you're waiting for me to shut up about this issue you better have a comfortable seat, 'cause it's gonna be a while before I drop this one. I actually find it amazing that you guys haven't gotten rid of this stupid policy yet, considering the results.

 

 

 

 

[Choada_Boy]

I think the parks can take care of themselves. Honor system. If it looks broken, someone fix it. Trail overgrown? Machete time.

[JosephH]

I think the parks can take care of themselves. Honor system. If it looks broken, someone fix it. Trail overgrown? Machete time.

Really? How did you arrive at that conclusion? Hey, they'd be complete shitholes inside a month if they weren't constantly maintained.

[rob]

Why can't everything just be free?

[olyclimber]

it used to be. even love was free.

[mattp]

Just out of curiosity - what substantive difference would it make to the average visitor if the persons collecting the entrance fees, writing tickets, and conducting maintenance are contractors rather than direct state employees?

 

At several National Forest locations, I think the private contractors have proven WAY more obnoxious than their former Federal paid counterparts. Seriously. Have you been camping in the last ten years?

 

I have no information as to whether the private contractors are more "efficient" but my suspicion is that we'd generally be better served by entry level Federal employees than by private contractors who want to enforce regulations. I've encountered some very dedicated public servants collecting fees under a private contract at some locations but mostly: NOT.

[olyclimber]

I have to agree with every part of Matt's post. That has been my experience.

[Crillz]

Also, as for the government contractors:

It is my experience that on the surface the government, whether state or federal, pays a significant amount more than what would be paid to an actual employee (other costs that weigh in are insurance, retirement, and benefits that the would have to be paid to an actual employee vs. just paying a set price for the contract - which is its own topic). I suspect the end cost ends up being higher to the tax payer in the long run - as contractor's work for profit and the government cannot.

 

I've seen the billing statement for the contract I work under and my company charges the feds about 1.5x my salary. My employer doesn't actually provide any physical service other than pushing paper around - sending bills and logs of time which I fill out anyway.

[num1mc]

I've seen the billing statement for the contract I work under and my company charges the feds about 1.5x my salary. My employer doesn't actually provide any physical service other than pushing paper around - sending bills and logs of time which I fill out anyway.

 

Absolutely the norm in all aspects. If you took a government employee and looked at their gross cost to their employer as a percentage of their rate of pay, I'm sure in many cases it would exceed 220%. Even in private industry, 200% is not unheard of

[bstach]

I think the parks can take care of themselves. Honor system. If it looks broken, someone fix it. Trail overgrown? Machete time.

Really? How did you arrive at that conclusion? Hey, they'd be complete shitholes inside a month if they weren't constantly maintained.

No way. When the toilet needed to be cleaned, Choada would just drive out with his scrub brush and new roll of TP. It'd be all good.

[num1mc]

No way. When the toilet needed to be cleaned, Choada would just drive out with his scrub brush and new roll of TP. It'd be all good.

 

Gloves are aid

[dougd]

"Ya know Doug if I didn't know better I'd think you're pretty sick and tired of hearing my opinion."

 

Very perceptive.

 

"You are welcome to ignore it."

 

I will try. No promises...

 

"I'm not sure what it is about my opinions specifically that puts sand in your panties but I'll go ahead and apologize if I've done something to personally offend you."

 

No apology necessary. Rather than get into a tit for tat, back and forth, ad nauseam over this one, I'll let our respective posts stand...

 

In closing I will say I think the whiney baby forum is a sound idea. I will not rescind my nomination for mod at this time. I am open to other titles however for this forum.

 

How about "barking across the border?"

 

sincerely,

 

d

 

 

[Choada_Boy]

I think the parks can take care of themselves. Honor system. If it looks broken, someone fix it. Trail overgrown? Machete time.

Really? How did you arrive at that conclusion? Hey, they'd be complete shitholes inside a month if they weren't constantly maintained.

 

They will be complete shit holes in less than three days. They will repulse even the most hardened of shit hole aficionados. I can then expect to have the places to myself, minding, of course, no to disturb the dead hookers stuffed into half burned mattresses.

[rob]

my girlfriend's father visited from Romania last fall and we all went hiking. He remarked how much better care we take of our parks and backcountry than in his country.

 

I dunno, I tried and I just can't seem to get worked up over a $30 yearly parking permit. It's better than the dollar-a-day I have to pay at Marymoor.

 

Driving is expensive, what do you expect? Carpool and split the parking fee or something, jeez. Buncha whiners.

[Rafael_H]

This is just for my information. The only place I use and a Discover Pass required, is the Mailbox Peak.

 

The gated side road that leads to the actual trail is clearly being maintained - there have been landslides over the years and it is in a pretty good shape now.

 

So, who is maintaining that road and for what purposes? Anybody know? Is it the state parks, or some Fire Fighting entity, or what...

 

Would be great to know. Thanks!

[KaskadskyjKozak]

my girlfriend's father visited from Romania last fall and we all went hiking. He remarked how much better care we take of our parks and backcountry than in his country.

 

I dunno, I tried and I just can't seem to get worked up over a $30 yearly parking permit. It's better than the dollar-a-day I have to pay at Marymoor.

 

Driving is expensive, what do you expect? Carpool and split the parking fee or something, jeez. Buncha whiners.

 

We should charge $30 a year to park around Greenlake. The park could pay for itself and just think how the $ from the City could be spent elsewhere on great programs! Shit, all kiddie playgrounds should be pay-per-use! Fucking freeloading rug rats! Do they think care and upkeep of the swing sets is free? Whiners!

 

[Water]

glad i revived this thread.

 

I like oregon's system for funding parks using a large part of lottery dollars. The discovery pass has some crappy things like originally only being for one vehicle but isn't radically different from something like NW forest pass in terms of how it operates.

 

Obviously the state will do ok even if it hurts some tourism aspect but it is worth considering border oregonians perspective--not as a hinge point but just as another factor. For instance it was nice to take out of town visitors up beacon rock. But at the same time there are a plethora of options for things to do. If I really want a gorge hike there are plenty on the OR side or on WA like table mnt or coyote wall that are free. The things that are close access that require the pass are not compelling enough for me so they just ensure I avoid them. Totally a guess but I see very little motivation for most oregonians to get the pass when so many other options are at hand. others opinion may vary though.