dhrmabum Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) Hi all, and a Merry Christmas to everyone! Rather than resurrect the Discovery Pass thread from this summer, and its 7pgs, I thought I'd begin anew with my problem: I recently, (though it's now been at least a month), received a ticket for not having a Discovery pass and accessing the State park. In this case, Hamilton Mountain, located right next to Beacon Rock State park in S. Wa. So, the story is rather than pay, I elected to park a quarter mi. down the road, on a wide pull-out, shoulder of Highway 14, and hoof it back to the park. Gate was shut leading up to Hamilton Mt, so one would have to park at Beacon rock anyway and then hoof it up the road to Hamilton. Anyway, as I'm approaching the "park," on the opposite side of the road from the Ranger station, said Ranger, a Ms. was out on the lawn talking with someone, and she shouted out to me across the highway, "I need to talk to you." I should've kept walking, but, I obliged and walked over. She asked me if I was planning on entering the park, and I said yes. She then informed me about needing a pass, etc. even though I parked down the road. I asked her what the sign said, ie, does it in fact say one needs a pass to enter the park, or is it in fact a parking pass? She didn't know. I told her that I was within my bounds to park on the highway, and she didn't have a right to ticket me, and that if she did, I'd see her in court. I left and proceeded on my hike. Ticket was on my windshield when I returned. So, that's the story. Ticket was for $99.00. Recently received a courtesy reminder/ticket from Skamania Co. saying that if I bought a pass, they would reduce the ticket to $59, if i produce a pass within 15 days of the ticket, and of course, the 15 days has passed. My choices are: A)Ignore it all, and maybe have a surprise later. B)Buy a pass, then pay the $59, if it's not too late, etc. C)Fight it. Mail in the ticket requesting either Mitigation, or a Contested Hearing(this on the back of the ticket). Contested bit says "I want to challenge this infraction. I did not commit this infraction, etc. I don't mind doing this at all, and should based on my earlier speech to the ranger; only problem is possibly missing work, driving up to Skamania somewhere, etc. Looks like it's gonna cost me either way. . and I'm fairly poor. . . Still, at this point. . . What would you do? Do I have a legal leg to stand on? I did take photos of the signs, along with where I parked down the road, etc. . . Great stuff for me at Christmas. Thanks in advance for your input! Edited December 23, 2011 by dhrmabum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 you can read all 19 pages of the law here: http://apps.leg.wa.gov/documents/billdocs/2011-12/Pdf/Bills/Senate%20Passed%20Legislature/5622-S2.PL.pdf "A discover pass is required for any motor vehicle to park or operate on any recreation site or lands" - sure sounds like, if you're not parked in the park, that you ought to be exempt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhrmabum Posted December 23, 2011 Author Share Posted December 23, 2011 Thanks Ivan. Yep, that's what I would think. . Guess I'll be going to court. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yikes Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 You can fight it by mail, i.e. you don't have to physically go to court. I failed to write my license plate number on the display tag and then did not respond to the initial ticket in a timely fashion. Same as you, they "offered" to reduce my fine to $59 if I showed proof. I photocopied all my shit and mailed it in. Ultimately, my fine was dismissed and I only paid with a single postage stamp and a fair amount of high blood pressure. YMMV Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) Enforcement officials of all kinds are often not clear about the actual laws they're enforcing. This woman was clearly enforcing a law that doesn't exist...IF in fact you did not park inside the park (you should double check that). She and her colleagues will continue to do this until the public pushes back. Why? Hey, reforming legislation is time consuming and inconvenient. Charging users extralegally is so much easier. It's also bullshit. By this woman's definition, she could ticket you if you parked in your own driveway and entered the park entirely on foot. Fight it, for the sake of those who follow. Edited December 23, 2011 by tvashtarkatena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevetimetravlr Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 The highway runs thru the park, so it technically is part of the park, and they ticket people trying to avoid the Pass by parking there. You shouldn't have messed with Ranger Vivian, she'll get ya everytime! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
num1mc Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 A)Ignore it all, and maybe have a surprise later. B)Buy a pass, then pay the $59, if it's not too late, etc. C)Fight it. Mail in the ticket requesting either Mitigation, or a Contested Hearing(this on the back of the ticket). Contested bit says "I want to challenge this infraction. I did not commit this infraction, etc. A) is a poor idea, and will not work out in your favor B) is something you'll eventually have to do C) is what you should do in this case. You may or may not be guilty, but it appears that the Ranger is enforcing the pass as a requirement to enter the park, in which case you are innocent, because a Discovery Pass is not a requirement for pedestrians. If you were cited for parking on State Park property along the highway, I believe you would still be innocent, because the lot must be signed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
112 Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Call up WSDOT and ask them what permits are required for pullouts (emphasize pullouts, not trailheads) along that portion of highway 14, and who issues those permits (I bet they say none and no one). Also, note the location stated on the ticket and confirm it matches your actual parking location (I wouldn't put it past them to leave this field intentionally vague). Also, someone should record (imo) the Rangers (allegedly) giving faulty information to the public. That is the kind of public service we don't need! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 The backstory here is that far fewer people bought Discovery Passes than expected: the program has been a financial failure. I would imagine this has 'incentivized' rangers to step up enforcement...apparently beyond their authority to do so. I'm not one to call for state employees to lose their jobs, but violating the law isn't the best way to try to keep them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
num1mc Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Call up WSDOT and ask them what permits are required for pullouts (emphasize pullouts, not trailheads) along that portion of highway 14, and who issues those permits (I bet they say none and no one). Unnecessary, the WSDOT is probably even less knowledgeable about the Pass than anybody. The ticket is a Discovery Pass violation, and to be enforced the parking lot must have signage. If it did not, you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonG Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Please fight it. I would bet that the state highway ROW is not part of the park. The parcel layer could tell you for sure, I don't know if Skamania couny is online with theirs or not. This could save you time in the long run if you check it out. As Ivan said, if it is WSDOT property and not state parks (likely) then you are in the clear and should prevail in court. And, whatever you do, don't ignore it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevetimetravlr Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I just found out. FYI. The Discovery Pass is not a parking pass, it is a Vehicle Access Pass, so if you access the park by driving a vehicle, they can charge you and they can ticket you. Thats the way it is written, like it or not. and no offense, but disregarding what a Ranger tells you is not the best course of action for yourself or climbers as a user group in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I parked there over the summer as well and got a ticket. I just paid and it went away. I should have fought it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonG Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I think it hinges on whether or not the pullout is in the park, though. If it is outside the park, you would be accessing the park via foot/bike and wouldn't need a vehicle pass, correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denalidave Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I've found that if you park on Little Rd - the next side road west of the park (not Kueffler Rd which is in the park) you are off Hwy 14 all together and not likely to get a ticket. I've never got a ticket there and have left a car overnight, more than once. I finally broke down and bought a pass though. Seems they have no legal leg to stand on if you are indeed parking outside of the park boundaries. 112 has good suggestions on clarifying where you can actually park and what permits are required. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 http://www.parks.wa.gov/parks/thumbnailAndmaps/4150042.pdf Park boundaries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crillz Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I just found out. FYI. The Discovery Pass is not a parking pass, it is a Vehicle Access Pass, so if you access the park by driving a vehicle, they can charge you and they can ticket you. Thats the way it is written, like it or not. and no offense, but disregarding what a Ranger tells you is not the best course of action for yourself or climbers as a user group in general. Wrong. It is written "a discover pass is required for any motor vehicle to park or operate on any recreation site or lands..." Fight that shit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonG Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I think the state parks map is misleading. Look here to see a more detailed view, including parcel lines. Much of the 14 ROW appears to be controlled by WSDOT and not state parks. There are some irregularities though, and it looks like state parks does control some of the highway. I am not sure if this is an official parcel map though. I found the page linked to the Skamania County Assessor's site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) I just found out. FYI. The Discovery Pass is not a parking pass, it is a Vehicle Access Pass, so if you access the park by driving a vehicle, they can charge you and they can ticket you. Thats the way it is written, like it or not. and no offense, but disregarding what a Ranger tells you is not the best course of action for yourself or climbers as a user group in general. Impossible and unenforceable. What if you park 1/2 mile away? 1 mile away? The ranger may be interpreting the law this way, but it's not written as such, nor could it be. This kind of nebulous power grab needs to be fought and beaten back. Edited December 23, 2011 by tvashtarkatena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 that pullout just west of beacon IS marked that you must pay now, BUT i doubt it's part of the park - years ago, when beacon charged a parking pass, that area was not marked nor enforced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonG Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Actually, if it is the pullout just west of the rock, the parcel map makes it look like it IS part of the park. At least according to the link I posted above.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Actually, if it is the pullout just west of the rock, the parcel map makes it look like it IS part of the park. At least according to the link I posted above.... hmmm - your map i can't make sense of, but kev's does make it look like that pullout is in the park? fucking weird that one is, as it draws some lines that don't connect to each other, thus enclosing nothing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YocumRidge Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 The best way to avoid the ticket is to meet Ivan in Camas and drive to the park in his red devil that has Discovery pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonG Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 (edited) You have to zoom way in before the parcel lines show up. . . . If you click on the parcel with the pullout, it lists "State of Washington" (aka state parks). If you try and click on the ROW on either side of it, it doesn't hyperlink, which is typical in my experience for highway ROWs (at least on SnoCo's website). I don't know why. Edited December 24, 2011 by JasonG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevetimetravlr Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 I just found out. FYI. The Discovery Pass is not a parking pass, it is a Vehicle Access Pass, so if you access the park by driving a vehicle, they can charge you and they can ticket you. Thats the way it is written, like it or not. and no offense, but disregarding what a Ranger tells you is not the best course of action for yourself or climbers as a user group in general. Wrong. It is written "a discover pass is required for any motor vehicle to park or operate on any recreation site or lands..." Fight that shit! Not wrong. I spoke with the Head Ranger and that is exactly what he told me. Might want to look at the fine print. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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