Will Jesus make me a better climber if I pray?

[rob]

Seriously. Atheists have been claiming that god doesn't exist for years, but none of them have been able to PROVE IT!!!1

 

Nobody could ever disprove the tooth fairy, either. That's why I still believe!!

[tvashtarkatena]

If you have a daughter you love her, right? If she starts talking to an imaginary friend named Zardoz you take her to the shrink. If she starts talking to an imaginary friend named Jesus you take her to church. If either imaginary friend actually shows up you start taking her seriously.

[tvashtarkatena]

Oh, and BTW D-Dave: I've finally relented: you can call me Daddy.

[Kimmo]

paranoid schizophrenics have similar "relationships" with people they've never met. are you paranoid?

 

hmmm i think you might be mistaken on this one; one of the difficulties facing "schizophrenics" is their sense of isolation, marked by a lack of loving relationships. it'd be hard to compare a diagnosed schizophrenic's relationship to jesus with that of a relatively well-adjusted humanoid's relationship with jesus: there are reasons a "schizophrenic" is classified as such.

[JoeR]

Is there or is there not a sugar plum fairy?

 

 

 

 

[video:youtube]

[denalidave]

Oh, and BTW D-Dave: I've finally relented: you can call me Daddy.

Yes sir, Daddio.

[G-spotter]

paranoid schizophrenics have similar "relationships" with people they've never met. are you paranoid?

 

hmmm i think you might be mistaken on this one; one of the difficulties facing "schizophrenics" is their sense of isolation, marked by a lack of loving relationships. it'd be hard to compare a diagnosed schizophrenic's relationship to jesus with that of a relatively well-adjusted humanoid's relationship with jesus: there are reasons a "schizophrenic" is classified as such.

 

Many of the medieval hermits were textbook definition of modern schizophrenics. They lived by themselves, ignored personal hygeiene, acted bizarrely and heard God talking to them constantly.

[Mtguide]

i don't think the distinction between "bastardized" and "syncretic" is entirely relevant to me, since they both indicate a change from the original teachings and ideas (which was my point).

 

and i'm not sure what you mean in your second paragraph; i was simply paraphrasing something the buddha supposedly said. did what he say exist in a broader context, one that may have shifted the meaning in a different direction? sure, but i'm not sure that shift would occur with the introduction of the three jewels as context-broadeners, would it? i'm not terribly literate in buddhist texts, and it sounds like you might be, so share with me any theistic tendencies of the buddha, since i'm not aware of any.

 

Your original assertion was that orthodox Buddhists are atheists. I disagreed and provided my simple definition of an atheist as a materialist with no belief in the supernatural. Then I stated that Buddhism has a large quantity of supernatural beliefs incorporated within its doctrine.

 

As far as theism, I don't believe I'd equate Buddhism with Theism, that is, theism with the element of a belief in God or gods. So again, I'm refuting that Buddhists are atheists regardless of whether some Buddhists are also theists.

 

Further, take a look at the notions of karma and rebirth that figure prominently in Siddharta Buddha's teachings. Karma is not attributed to God or gods but it is seen as a cosmic force, a sort of cosmic justice. So here, you have something relatively omnipresent but impersonal, godlike in quality but not god. Do you get what I'm getting at?

 

As far as the pure, uncorrupted sayings of the Buddha concerning the way, recall that he said something along the lines of, "It cannot be taught, only realized." Since it might also even be beyond formal logic, that's another indicator that it's a religion and not simply ethics or philosophy.

 

Strictly speaking, although Buddhism would say that enlightenment is indeed beyond any formal logic or intellectual understanding, any "faith" that might be spoken of in Buddhist teachings is less a matter of any sense or idea of a deity or presence, than it is, as one Zen master put it, trusting oneself, believing in oneself, as both being, and already existing in, a state of highest perfect enlightenment. And that this "Buddha nature" IS everything both within us and outside of us. The Zen folks call it, thus "No inside and no outside", because it's all the same thing. Zen teachers call this "dying of thirst while standing in the middle of the river", and one teacher has said, "Big Mind,(Buddha mind or enlightened mind) is something you already HAVE, not something to go seeking for." So the teachers will often speak of it as your "original nature", or "true nature."

 

And it definitely is NOT theistic, because Buddhist texts and sutras (literally, "teachings") speak of everything as being essentially "empty", without form, color, taste, smell, sound or touch. And this "emptiness" is referred to as "No Mind", or "Big, Mind", "Buddha Mind","Bodhi Mind", etc., simply for the inability of any language or rational thought, to correctly convey what it is, or what it's like.

 

This "true nature" of reality, in the Buddhist understanding, has absolutely nothing to do with anything that might be conceived of as a god or gods, supernatural powers, etc. There's one little tale of the Buddha traveling and coming upon an old man meditating by the river. Buddha stopped to chat, and asked, "So, how's it going?", and the old man said, "Oh,you know, pretty good, I've gotten to where I can walk across the river on the water, now." And the Buddha said, "Oh, man! What a waste of time; the ferry's just a hundred yards up the river!". Zen masters and Hindu Yogis know all about making teacups fly across the room, etc., but that's just cheap tricks, way off the point.

 

It is true that Buddhism, as did early Christianity, appropriated and incorporated imagery and iconography from ancient religions it was contemporary with, such as Nepalese and Tibetan Bon dieties and spirits, Hindu and Jain gods and goddesses, Chinese folk magic, Thai Shamanism, Shinto ghosts and demons, etc., in order to facilitate teaching of Buddhist precepts and meditation training. So, in Japan, for instance, the diety known as Fudo Myo,a fierce-looking little guy with a fanged, snarling visage, packing a flaming sword,( and looking very much like a Tibetan or Chinese Demon or Devil Dog, swirling clouds, necklace of human skulls, the whole nine yards) is the same as the Hindu Achala, and both of these embody the spirit or quality of Accomplished Wrath, what a Christian might call Righteous Indignation or Justice.

 

But it's all just for effect. In Buddhism itself, even the BUDDHA himself, and especially images or any concept of the Buddha as a god, or deity, or even as a human being possessed of supernatural powers, is roundly condemned and denied any practical relevance or value. As they say, "if you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him",because that's NOT IT, that has nothing to do with real understanding, it's just an illusion and an obstacle.

 

The teachers will tell you, "A wooden Buddha cannot get you through fire, a stone Buddha will not carry you across the river, a bronze Buddha will not survive the furnace..". It might be true that some Buddhists worship Buddha, but the strict understanding is that, if anything, images of Buddha are mainly just to serve as a reminder to get your ass planted on that meditation cushion, just like Buddha himself did, and look into things yourself, instead of expecting some ethereal power, god, or magical "energy" to do it for you. Buddha was no god, but just a human being like anyone else, and what he discovered, by looking into himself, was not "God", but that everything is, as stated above, "empty". Literally, "nothing" to it.

 

It may be that you have somewhat confused Buddhism, or some cultural FORMS of Buddhism, with these other religions. But that would be a misinterpretation of basic Buddhist understanding at it's simplest and most direct. Shunryu Suzuki Roshi, in his little book "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind" says that if you want to, you may call Buddhism a religion, but it really doesn't matter, that actually, Buddhism is beyond religion, or maybe "religion before religion". So it might not be religion in it's usual sense." Because it's mainly just a practice, not even a worship or way of prayer. And he continues that the main point of Buddhist practice is simply "to appreciate our original nature," and then to live our daily lives, moment to moment, out of that understanding

 

Elsewhere, Suzuki Roshi ("Roshi" just means "teacher".) says, regarding this "original nature", that some people may call it "God", and that if you want to call it "God" or "reality", that's OK, it doesn't really matter. But he does say that what we might think of as God or reality or existence, and "what I mean by that, may not be what you mean." It is not some objective "thing". And even though it is characterized or described as being "empty", this "emptiness" is not just void, but it has some rules or structure to it, so that what we may call 'empty' is actually, in a sense "full", that moment after moment, everything comes out of this "nothingness." Not easy to explain. I'm doing a very poor job of it, probably just making matters worse.

 

Regarding the whole issue and concept of "karma", to de-mystify that for you in just three words: Cause. And. Effect. Cause and Effect. In modern physics we understand the whole idea of interconnectedness, or as the Buddhists call it, interdependence, and interpenetration of all things; expressed by the New Age phrase, "Pick a flower, and touch the farthest star". But it's not some magical, supernatural cosmic justice system, rather a pretty ordinary, practical understanding that it matters what we do. Almost Newtonian-"For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." Anything we do is like throwing a pebble into a pond; the ripples spread outward, they move the grasses at the edge of the water, those motions affect the movements of air, temperature, insects, etc.

 

So. Dump your waste oil into the ocean, kill marine life and eventually wind up with hydrocarbons and PCBs in your bloodstream. Do something evil, and you set in motion a whole chain of circumstances which may eventually come around to harm you as well. The Chinese have a folk proverb, "The hatred you bear your enemy burns you more than it does him." And the opposite is equally true. Act with kindness and generosity, and it will move through the fabric of society and life and contribute to make things better for all. We may not benefit directly, but there is plenty of research to indicate that, if you're unhappy, a good way to feel better right away is to do something for someone else.

 

Finally, this brings us all the way back to the original question that started this thread, praying to Jesus to be a better climber, Buddhism, etc. One Zen teacher, when asked about the relation of Buddhism to Christianity, said, "I think Jesus and Buddha are very good friends."

 

A story to explain: Years ago, while living on the Blood Indian reserve in SW Alberta, Canada, I went to visit an old Blackfoot medicine man. I was working at the tribal Youth Ranch, and the man who ran it refused to spend money on veterinary care and medicine for the horses, who were riddled with a whole variety of ailments and injuries, many easily treatable. Someone told me to go see old Jim White Calf, maybe he could do a sweatlodge ceremony. White Calf, (or 'Onistipokah' in Blackfoot,meaning "Sacred White Buffalo Calf") was 106 years old at the time. He listened to my troubles, and then said, "Well, since the white man came, everything has changed. We used to have people who could actually cure bullet wounds using sweetgrass smoke and an eagle wing fan. If it was done the right way, often the wounds would heal almost immediately. Now, we believe that the white man came for a reason; they have many things to show us; and we have many things to show them. It is all, in spite of the tragedies and killings, a Great Teaching. But nowdays, when people come to me to heal them of this or that, I tell them, 'if you're sick, go see the doctor'. Oh sure, I'll be glad to do a sweatlodge, but we do the sweatlodge AND go to the doctor. You need to do BOTH."

 

So, if you want to pray to Jesus, I think it's perfectly appropriate to ask for guidance and help in becoming a better climber, but not in the sense that Jesus will, by some supernatural powers, make you a better climber if you just pray enough. If you want to ask for the inner strength and discipline necessary to train hard, to overcome fear or laziness or procrastination, fine. If you want to pray for guidance in learning the best way to train, fine. But the actual face-to-the-rock, nose-to-the-grindstone hard work of laps, weights, conditioning, reading and study, budgeting your time and money to get from where you are, to where you want to go,YOU are the one who has to do that, and if I understand Jesus at all, he didn't let anyone off that easy, even if he did change water into wine. After all, he and Joseph were carpenters, just regular old guys who knew what hard work was all about. He'd tell you that the only way that beam is gonna get cut, is you pick up that saw and get to it. And make sure you checked your measurements first.

 

I think Jesus was probably a pretty rough ol' boy; he didn't kick those moneylenders out of the temple for nothing. And just like Buddha said, "Folks, I can't really tell you what it is, but I CAN tell you how to experience it for yourself, and that means you gotta plant your butt on the cushion and meditate, and this is how"; well, I don't Jesus is gonna do your climbing for you, either. A real honest-to-goodness Zen master is about as tough a teacher as you'll find anywhere; and the essential understanding has been passed, person to person, all the way from the Buddha himself to the teacher who sits in front of you and whacks your noggin with his stick and bellows "Show me your original self!". It's all based on actual personal experience and self-realization.

 

Just a couple more: Harry Roberts, an old Yurok Indian teacher, once said, "One who does not make his own way, can never approach creation." And my own Mother used to say, " I wouldn't give a fig for anyone's religion, whose very cat and dog are not the better for it."

 

All right. Way too many words. Starts with you. Now just go do it.

[Off_White]

can i have all my cut out genius-banter re-installed now that we'r ein spray land?

 

Sorry my friend, but it's gone gone gone, and all in a pointless effort it seems. My apologies if you really miss those particular pearls, but I assure you: you have written much better.

[ivan]

can i have all my cut out genius-banter re-installed now that we'r ein spray land?

 

Sorry my friend, but it's gone gone gone, and all in a pointless effort it seems. My apologies if you really miss those particular pearls, but I assure you: you have written much better.

dude...have you TRIED writing in blank verse?!?

 

[ivan]

buddhism to my mind is the raddest religion for the simple fact that i can't imagine another that could yield a scene so mind-boggingly surreal as that of quong duc (sp?)'s immolation

[Stonehead]

i don't think the distinction between "bastardized" and "syncretic" is entirely relevant to me, since they both indicate a change from the original teachings and ideas (which was my point).

 

and i'm not sure what you mean in your second paragraph; i was simply paraphrasing something the buddha supposedly said. did what he say exist in a broader context, one that may have shifted the meaning in a different direction? sure, but i'm not sure that shift would occur with the introduction of the three jewels as context-broadeners, would it? i'm not terribly literate in buddhist texts, and it sounds like you might be, so share with me any theistic tendencies of the buddha, since i'm not aware of any.

 

Your original assertion was that orthodox Buddhists are atheists. I disagreed and provided my simple definition of an atheist as a materialist with no belief in the supernatural. Then I stated that Buddhism has a large quantity of supernatural beliefs incorporated within its doctrine.

 

As far as theism, I don't believe I'd equate Buddhism with Theism, that is, theism with the element of a belief in God or gods. So again, I'm refuting that Buddhists are atheists regardless of whether some Buddhists are also theists.

 

Further, take a look at the notions of karma and rebirth that figure prominently in Siddharta Buddha's teachings. Karma is not attributed to God or gods but it is seen as a cosmic force, a sort of cosmic justice. So here, you have something relatively omnipresent but impersonal, godlike in quality but not god. Do you get what I'm getting at?

 

As far as the pure, uncorrupted sayings of the Buddha concerning the way, recall that he said something along the lines of, "It cannot be taught, only realized." Since it might also even be beyond formal logic, that's another indicator that it's a religion and not simply ethics or philosophy.

 

Strictly speaking, although Buddhism would say that enlightenment is indeed beyond any formal logic or intellectual understanding, any "faith" that might be spoken of in Buddhist teachings is less a matter of any sense or idea of a deity or presence, than it is, as one Zen master put it, trusting oneself, believing in oneself, as both being, and already existing in, a state of highest perfect enlightenment. And that this "Buddha nature" IS everything both within us and outside of us. The Zen folks call it, thus "No inside and no outside", because it's all the same thing. Zen teachers call this "dying of thirst while standing in the middle of the river", and one teacher has said, "Big Mind,(Buddha mind or enlightened mind) is something you already HAVE, not something to go seeking for." So the teachers will often speak of it as your "original nature", or "true nature."

 

And it definitely is NOT theistic, because Buddhist texts and sutras (literally, "teachings") speak of everything as being essentially "empty", without form, color, taste, smell, sound or touch. And this "emptiness" is referred to as "No Mind", or "Big, Mind", "Buddha Mind","Bodhi Mind", etc., simply for the inability of any language or rational thought, to correctly convey what it is, or what it's like.

 

This "true nature" of reality, in the Buddhist understanding, has absolutely nothing to do with anything that might be conceived of as a god or gods, supernatural powers, etc. There's one little tale of the Buddha traveling and coming upon an old man meditating by the river. Buddha stopped to chat, and asked, "So, how's it going?", and the old man said, "Oh,you know, pretty good, I've gotten to where I can walk across the river on the water, now." And the Buddha said, "Oh, man! What a waste of time; the ferry's just a hundred yards up the river!". Zen masters and Hindu Yogis know all about making teacups fly across the room, etc., but that's just cheap tricks, way off the point.

 

It is true that Buddhism, as did early Christianity, appropriated and incorporated imagery and iconography from ancient religions it was contemporary with, such as Nepalese and Tibetan Bon dieties and spirits, Hindu and Jain gods and goddesses, Chinese folk magic, Thai Shamanism, Shinto ghosts and demons, etc., in order to facilitate teaching of Buddhist precepts and meditation training. So, in Japan, for instance, the diety known as Fudo Myo,a fierce-looking little guy with a fanged, snarling visage, packing a flaming sword,( and looking very much like a Tibetan or Chinese Demon or Devil Dog, swirling clouds, necklace of human skulls, the whole nine yards) is the same as the Hindu Achala, and both of these embody the spirit or quality of Accomplished Wrath, what a Christian might call Righteous Indignation or Justice.

 

But it's all just for effect. In Buddhism itself, even the BUDDHA himself, and especially images or any concept of the Buddha as a god, or deity, or even as a human being possessed of supernatural powers, is roundly condemned and denied any practical relevance or value. As they say, "if you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him",because that's NOT IT, that has nothing to do with real understanding, it's just an illusion and an obstacle.

 

The teachers will tell you, "A wooden Buddha cannot get you through fire, a stone Buddha will not carry you across the river, a bronze Buddha will not survive the furnace..". It might be true that some Buddhists worship Buddha, but the strict understanding is that, if anything, images of Buddha are mainly just to serve as a reminder to get your ass planted on that meditation cushion, just like Buddha himself did, and look into things yourself, instead of expecting some ethereal power, god, or magical "energy" to do it for you. Buddha was no god, but just a human being like anyone else, and what he discovered, by looking into himself, was not "God", but that everything is, as stated above, "empty". Literally, "nothing" to it.

 

It may be that you have somewhat confused Buddhism, or some cultural FORMS of Buddhism, with these other religions. But that would be a misinterpretation of basic Buddhist understanding at it's simplest and most direct. Shunryu Suzuki Roshi, in his little book "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind" says that if you want to, you may call Buddhism a religion, but it really doesn't matter, that actually, Buddhism is beyond religion, or maybe "religion before religion". So it might not be religion in it's usual sense." Because it's mainly just a practice, not even a worship or way of prayer. And he continues that the main point of Buddhist practice is simply "to appreciate our original nature," and then to live our daily lives, moment to moment, out of that understanding

 

Elsewhere, Suzuki Roshi ("Roshi" just means "teacher".) says, regarding this "original nature", that some people may call it "God", and that if you want to call it "God" or "reality", that's OK, it doesn't really matter. But he does say that what we might think of as God or reality or existence, and "what I mean by that, may not be what you mean." It is not some objective "thing". And even though it is characterized or described as being "empty", this "emptiness" is not just void, but it has some rules or structure to it, so that what we may call 'empty' is actually, in a sense "full", that moment after moment, everything comes out of this "nothingness." Not easy to explain. I'm doing a very poor job of it, probably just making matters worse.

 

Regarding the whole issue and concept of "karma", to de-mystify that for you in just three words: Cause. And. Effect. Cause and Effect. In modern physics we understand the whole idea of interconnectedness, or as the Buddhists call it, interdependence, and interpenetration of all things; expressed by the New Age phrase, "Pick a flower, and touch the farthest star". But it's not some magical, supernatural cosmic justice system, rather a pretty ordinary, practical understanding that it matters what we do. Almost Newtonian-"For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." Anything we do is like throwing a pebble into a pond; the ripples spread outward, they move the grasses at the edge of the water, those motions affect the movements of air, temperature, insects, etc.

 

So. Dump your waste oil into the ocean, kill marine life and eventually wind up with hydrocarbons and PCBs in your bloodstream. Do something evil, and you set in motion a whole chain of circumstances which may eventually come around to harm you as well. The Chinese have a folk proverb, "The hatred you bear your enemy burns you more than it does him." And the opposite is equally true. Act with kindness and generosity, and it will move through the fabric of society and life and contribute to make things better for all. We may not benefit directly, but there is plenty of research to indicate that, if you're unhappy, a good way to feel better right away is to do something for someone else.

 

Finally, this brings us all the way back to the original question that started this thread, praying to Jesus to be a better climber, Buddhism, etc. One Zen teacher, when asked about the relation of Buddhism to Christianity, said, "I think Jesus and Buddha are very good friends."

 

A story to explain: Years ago, while living on the Blood Indian reserve in SW Alberta, Canada, I went to visit an old Blackfoot medicine man. I was working at the tribal Youth Ranch, and the man who ran it refused to spend money on veterinary care and medicine for the horses, who were riddled with a whole variety of ailments and injuries, many easily treatable. Someone told me to go see old Jim White Calf, maybe he could do a sweatlodge ceremony. White Calf, (or 'Onistipokah' in Blackfoot,meaning "Sacred White Buffalo Calf") was 106 years old at the time. He listened to my troubles, and then said, "Well, since the white man came, everything has changed. We used to have people who could actually cure bullet wounds using sweetgrass smoke and an eagle wing fan. If it was done the right way, often the wounds would heal almost immediately. Now, we believe that the white man came for a reason; they have many things to show us; and we have many things to show them. It is all, in spite of the tragedies and killings, a Great Teaching. But nowdays, when people come to me to heal them of this or that, I tell them, 'if you're sick, go see the doctor'. Oh sure, I'll be glad to do a sweatlodge, but we do the sweatlodge AND go to the doctor. You need to do BOTH."

 

So, if you want to pray to Jesus, I think it's perfectly appropriate to ask for guidance and help in becoming a better climber, but not in the sense that Jesus will, by some supernatural powers, make you a better climber if you just pray enough. If you want to ask for the inner strength and discipline necessary to train hard, to overcome fear or laziness or procrastination, fine. If you want to pray for guidance in learning the best way to train, fine. But the actual face-to-the-rock, nose-to-the-grindstone hard work of laps, weights, conditioning, reading and study, budgeting your time and money to get from where you are, to where you want to go,YOU are the one who has to do that, and if I understand Jesus at all, he didn't let anyone off that easy, even if he did change water into wine. After all, he and Joseph were carpenters, just regular old guys who knew what hard work was all about. He'd tell you that the only way that beam is gonna get cut, is you pick up that saw and get to it. And make sure you checked your measurements first.

 

I think Jesus was probably a pretty rough ol' boy; he didn't kick those moneylenders out of the temple for nothing. And just like Buddha said, "Folks, I can't really tell you what it is, but I CAN tell you how to experience it for yourself, and that means you gotta plant your butt on the cushion and meditate, and this is how"; well, I don't Jesus is gonna do your climbing for you, either. A real honest-to-goodness Zen master is about as tough a teacher as you'll find anywhere; and the essential understanding has been passed, person to person, all the way from the Buddha himself to the teacher who sits in front of you and whacks your noggin with his stick and bellows "Show me your original self!". It's all based on actual personal experience and self-realization.

 

Just a couple more: Harry Roberts, an old Yurok Indian teacher, once said, "One who does not make his own way, can never approach creation." And my own Mother used to say, " I wouldn't give a fig for anyone's religion, whose very cat and dog are not the better for it."

 

All right. Way too many words. Starts with you. Now just go do it.

 

Ah, yes. I once spoke with a Zen master. “What is enlightenment?” I inquired. Fully expecting the master to answer with the usual koan --“What is the sound of one hand clapping?” he said, "Look thus."

[Phil K]

Will Jesus make me a better climber if I spray?

[AlpineK]

[video:youtube]

[G-spotter]

buddhism to my mind is the raddest religion for the simple fact that i can't imagine another that could yield a scene so mind-boggingly surreal as that of quong duc (sp?)'s immolation

 

immolation in the catholic church was commmon in the past but usually not self-inflicted

 

 

[ivan]

buddhism to my mind is the raddest religion for the simple fact that i can't imagine another that could yield a scene so mind-boggingly surreal as that of quong duc (sp?)'s immolation

 

immolation in the catholic church was commmon in the past but usually not self-inflicted

 

nor did the victim die w/o shrieking in agonizing pain or moving a muscle!

[G-spotter]

Some of em' did according to testimony of the time.

Probably those were the real witches.

[tvashtarkatena]

It's been painstakingly well established that I'm an expert on everything, but my knowledge of Buddhism is mostly confined to the Zen variety, and it's a bit rusty. From what I recall, however, the teachings are definitely non-theistic, but do not preclude deism. Once you're happily one-leg-skipping down the Eight Fold Path, however, it would be hard to imagine what value or purpose any deism would add to your journey. And Zen is pretty clear on the whole life after death thing: Don't worry about it, you're not dead yet.

[Phil K]

Well, darn- it sure seems worth a try. Just wondering though, which god should I pray to, Eric Johnson or Eddie Van Halen?

[KaskadskyjKozak]

buddhism to my mind is the raddest religion for the simple fact that i can't imagine another that could yield a scene so mind-boggingly surreal as that of quong duc (sp?)'s immolation

 

immolation in the catholic church was commmon in the past but usually not self-inflicted

 

nor did the victim die w/o shrieking in agonizing pain or moving a muscle!

 

I believe that usually those burned at the stake died of smoke inhalation, not burns.

[denalidave]

Well, darn- it sure seems worth a try. Just wondering though, which god should I pray to, Eric Johnson or Eddie Van Halen?

That's what I was just thinking. Why don't the OP, trasshie & boner all pray to Jesus for better climbing for a month or three and see what happens. Seriously, don't knock if you aint tried it...

[Kimmo]

paranoid schizophrenics have similar "relationships" with people they've never met. are you paranoid?

 

hmmm i think you might be mistaken on this one; one of the difficulties facing "schizophrenics" is their sense of isolation, marked by a lack of loving relationships. it'd be hard to compare a diagnosed schizophrenic's relationship to jesus with that of a relatively well-adjusted humanoid's relationship with jesus: there are reasons a "schizophrenic" is classified as such.

 

Many of the medieval hermits were textbook definition of modern schizophrenics. They lived by themselves, ignored personal hygeiene, acted bizarrely and heard God talking to them constantly.

 

are you suggesting it is time for frankezoid to come in from the desert and wash himself?

[Bug]

Wait a minute.

 

Are you guys really there?

[Fairweather]

buddhism to my mind is the raddest religion for the simple fact that i can't imagine another that could yield a scene so mind-boggingly surreal as that of quong duc (sp?)'s immolation

 

immolation in the catholic church was commmon in the past but usually not self-inflicted

 

nor did the victim die w/o shrieking in agonizing pain or moving a muscle!

 

My history is a little rusty. Now, these are only the witches who somehow managed to pass the submersion in a barrel of water test, correct?

[tvashtarkatena]

Well, darn- it sure seems worth a try. Just wondering though, which god should I pray to, Eric Johnson or Eddie Van Halen?

That's what I was just thinking. Why don't the OP, trasshie & boner all pray to Jesus for better climbing for a month or three and see what happens. Seriously, don't knock if you aint tried it...

 

To make it more like a real religion, I'll pray to whatever you want for as long as you want for an appropriate fee.