Sport vs Trad

[tvashtarkatena]

A sitting hip will do the job, but it isn't as omni directional or foolproof as a belay device. It's also kind of rough to have your kidneys crushed when someone takes a screamer. I still use it for quickie situations: crevasse hopping, etc.

 

If JH is teaching sitting hip with a directional non-locking biner, cool. If munter with non-locking...definitely NOT cool. I assume the latter is not the case.

 

Munters twist the shit out of rope. In sport climbing, particularly with larger parties, if the rope gets fouled on a rap, who cares? In alpine climbing, not so much.

 

Both should be required knowledge for any kind of climbing, because belay devices do tend to want to head back down without you on occasion.

 

I've taken to using an auto locking biner with my belay device. Fatigue induced stupidity is rarely a problem sport climbing, but it can produce unwanted results after a long day in the mountains. I take my cue from a Canadian mountain guide, a mutual friend, I hung with for a few days.

 

"When I ice climb, I sew it up now. I didn't used to, but it's a numbers game. I do it so much, why stack the deck the other way?"

 

Along a similar vein, if human error, regardless of source, can be eliminated by a wee bit of hardware, I'm all for it.

 

As for Swiss harnesses, they're light and just fine until you have to hang around in them...unless you're already a member of the Vienna Boys Choir. Gear loops are awful nice, too.

 

 

Edited August 14, 2009 by tvashtarkatena

[Bug]

all of which points up the absurdity of the "leave no trace ethic" in the first place. if you really want to leave no trace, then you'll just stay at home. i don't want to stay at home, so that means i've decided that i'm going to leave a trace.

 

humans alter their environment, that's what they do (this much should be obvious, especially to an archeologist such as raindawg). it isn't possible to not do what you were designed to do. "leaving no trace" isn't possible for us. if we are going climbing, then we are going to leave a trace. quoting the holy scripture of the 1973 chouniard catalogue or religious leaders like reinhold messner won't change this fact about human activity.

So are you saying that since we can't be perfect we might as well not even try to do better?

I mean no disrespect. I do not see your point.

I see why you disagree with the absolutism of Dawg et al. but I do not see where you draw any limits or describe any ethics of your own.

Cheers.

[Off_White]

We can all try to do better, whether its how we climb or how we talk to each other. Have a good weekend Bug.

[Fairweather]

We can all try to do better, whether its how we climb or how we talk to each other.

 

Um. I don't get it.

[tvashtarkatena]

Fuck off and play my trivia game, bitch.

[Off_White]

We can all try to do better, whether its how we climb or how we talk to each other.

 

Um. I don't get it.

 

No? I just thought Bug's response was really civil, and I was struck that while indeed none of us is perfect, its a worthwhile thing to try and be better, and its hardly limited to climbing style.

[Chuck_Norris]

FUCK OFF OFF.

[Off_White]

Technically, that would be self gratification. Hey, don't worry, even a bitter has been can have a good weekend.

[Fairweather]

Dooood! Don't ever upset Chuck. You'll bring his wrath down upon us all.

[JosephH]

A sitting hip will do the job, but it isn't as omni directional or foolproof as a belay device.

I only have a stance that could be classified as sitting about a quarter of the time. Sitting is in no way a necessary stance for a good hip belay which dependent on the stancing available. A single non-locking biner through the harness loops clipped to the rope going to the climber is all that is require to make the belay 'omni-directional'.

 

It's also kind of rough to have your kidneys crushed when someone takes a screamer.

If the rope is anywhere near your kidneys you aren't doing a hip belay, you're doing a stomach belay. The rope should stay down on your hips (just under your harness loops), it should never be above the top of your hip bones.

 

If JH is teaching sitting hip with a directional non-locking biner, cool. If munter with non-locking...definitely NOT cool. I assume the latter is not the case.

I teach well-stanced hip belays in all sorts of stances - sitting, standing, and everything inbetween depending on what's available for the best stance. A munter is a suck thing to do to a rope; I would never use one for anything whatsoever except in a rescue scenario.

 

As for Swiss harnesses, they're light and just fine until you have to hang around in them...unless you're already a member of the Vienna Boys Choir.

Depends on how you tie them, the way we always did they are entirely comfortable.

 

Phillip has seen the green harness enough so we'll spare him, but sometimes I still have to skip a harness if I'm just visiting or wander onto the scene of someone working a problem as a tourist. Last time I was in the New York with my wife and daughter it wasn't a climbing trip, it was an NYC / Broadway trip, but I talked them into a drive to the Gunks and a walk on the sulky trails and around the grounds of the Mowhonk Mountain House. In the course of the walk we stopped watched some folks working a roof problem and I eventually asked if I could have a quick ride on it. They looked at me quizzedly and said, 'but you don't have any gear...?' - no problem. Barefoot, tied in to the end of the rope, and no chalk to do it. Comes in handy sometimes and is also plenty comfortable to fall, hang, and lower in.

 

 

Phillip, you should come out with me sometime and give the new route a look...

[pigchampion]

i would be much more impressed if you added the element of climbing naked sporting a hardon while working the dickbar enjoying a no hands rest full on vulgarian style with weissner and krauss's wives finger banging at the base, you could have renamed the route "cockley's ceiling"....

[pope]

...all of which points up the absurdity of the "leave no trace ethic" in the first place. if you really want to leave no trace, then you'll just stay at home. i don't want to stay at home, so that means i've decided that i'm going to leave a trace.

 

humans alter their environment, that's what they do (this much should be obvious, especially to an archeologist such as raindawg). it isn't possible to not do what you were designed to do. "leaving no trace" isn't possible for us. if we are going climbing, then we are going to leave a trace. quoting the holy scripture of the 1973 chouniard catalogue or religious leaders like reinhold messner won't change this fact about human activity.

 

And since it's impossible to leave no trace, let's just wreck it some more. Listen, Jefe, believe it or not, before sport climbing and grid bolting, climbers managed to have a dandy time and left a fraction of the trace/mess that is common at just about every cliff today. Your argument seems to suggest that since we can't possibly have zero impact, anything goes.

[JosephH]

i would be much more impressed if you added the element of climbing naked sporting a hardon while working the dickbar enjoying a no hands rest full on vulgarian style with weissner and krauss's wives finger banging at the base, you could have renamed the route "cockley's ceiling"....

You'd have to check in with Bill Coe and his partners for the naked climbing action - I'm sure he's posted it up here somewhere several times now - besides, I don't even own any roller skates.

[chirp]

 

 

[chirp]

Thank goodness for chef Boiardi.

 

It's Chef Boyardee

 

Never....ever.....disrespect "The Chef"!!!!!!

 

 

The Master himself:

 

 

 

Dude..."Boyardee" is the disrespect...

 

True Boiardi

[ivan]

so, after a week in co, i notice this humble thread has gained 20-some odd pages - i'm an important man and can't possibly read all this - can i get a summary (and maybe a carebear too?)

[kevbone]

Try 43 pages

[ivan]

Try 43 pages

math, dude, math - it's a word problem - i was in on page 23 or so, and it's "gained 20 some odd pages" since then

 

does that get me a carebear?

[Choada_Boy]

(...in Pope's feeble mind...)

 

"Sport Climbing = Grid Bolting"

 

No arguing with a zealot. Move along, nothing to see here. While he's set to personally remove each and every "offensive" bolt, meanwhile, in China:

 

 

 

What you fail to comprehend is that, as we push 7B in global population, our whole race is doomed. No way around it. Your fretting over bolts, from the luxury of your rich white male American perch is ridiculous in the extreme. Most of the world's people live in pathetic misery but you have your head fixed just right so that you can get bummed out over zebra-skin lycra tights and five pieces of stainless steel. Try explaining your position to the Chinese trash fisherman above.

 

Pope: "You see, in my country, we are so rich I have the luxury of using a computer to argue with strangers over the Internet about the morality of using bolts to climb rock faces."

 

Chinese Trash Fisherman: "What's a computer? Can I use an Internet to catch more trash?"

 

[ivan]

 

trash fisherman on right ably displaying the essential truth: a brutha can put up w/ untold buckets of shit in this here life so long as he can get a smoke now n' again

[pink]

A sitting hip will do the job, but it isn't as omni directional or foolproof as a belay device.

I only have a stance that could be classified as sitting about a quarter of the time. Sitting is in no way a necessary stance for a good hip belay which dependent on the stancing available. A single non-locking biner through the harness loops clipped to the rope going to the climber is all that is require to make the belay 'omni-directional'.

 

It's also kind of rough to have your kidneys crushed when someone takes a screamer.

If the rope is anywhere near your kidneys you aren't doing a hip belay, you're doing a stomach belay. The rope should stay down on your hips (just under your harness loops), it should never be above the top of your hip bones.

 

If JH is teaching sitting hip with a directional non-locking biner, cool. If munter with non-locking...definitely NOT cool. I assume the latter is not the case.

I teach well-stanced hip belays in all sorts of stances - sitting, standing, and everything inbetween depending on what's available for the best stance. A munter is a suck thing to do to a rope; I would never use one for anything whatsoever except in a rescue scenario.

 

As for Swiss harnesses, they're light and just fine until you have to hang around in them...unless you're already a member of the Vienna Boys Choir.

Depends on how you tie them, the way we always did they are entirely comfortable.

 

Phillip has seen the green harness enough so we'll spare him, but sometimes I still have to skip a harness if I'm just visiting or wander onto the scene of someone working a problem as a tourist. Last time I was in the New York with my wife and daughter it wasn't a climbing trip, it was an NYC / Broadway trip, but I talked them into a drive to the Gunks and a walk on the sulky trails and around the grounds of the Mowhonk Mountain House. In the course of the walk we stopped watched some folks working a roof problem and I eventually asked if I could have a quick ride on it. They looked at me quizzedly and said, 'but you don't have any gear...?' - no problem. Barefoot, tied in to the end of the rope, and no chalk to do it. Comes in handy sometimes and is also plenty comfortable to fall, hang, and lower in.

 

 

Phillip, you should come out with me sometime and give the new route a look...

 

 

that's pretty cool joseph, i can't believe you did that barefoot. i would have had to slather chalk on my feet though.

[G-spotter]

[video:youtube]

[billcoe]

Favorite quote below "If we knew then what we know now, we wouldn't have blasted that off the face of the earth," said Kevin Price, Gorge district manager of the Oregon Parks and Recreation Department."

 

No Don, I've been trying to figure out how you think hikers are leave no trace. Did you oppose this monstrosity? I didn't because I think it's awesome they built a massive paved superhighway hiking trail right through one of the prettiest places on Gods green earth. Really. It's going to be a hell of a hike or bike I bet. I'm super glad they let the bikes on it. This trail, compared to our vertical "hiking trails" as climbers that you seem to have devoted your life to ranting on is a huge and massive difference of scale. Yet it is in many ways exactly what climbers are doing, traveling a path. I don't get your denigrating climbers who want to climb bolted routes....at all. You don't want to climb them, then don't. This trail puts a tad more on the face of the earth than a few inert non-environmentally offensive bolts. Bet this new trail will be visible on Google earth via satellite photos.

 

 

"HOOD RIVER --......

 

Just west of Hood River, another chunk of the Historic Columbia River Highway reopened its scenic grandeur to pedalers and pedestrians after a morning ceremony.

 

The Highway

 

When Bill Pattison was a youngster in 1940s Hood River, his father owned Weber Hardware Store at the corner of Oak and Fourth streets downtown.

 

On hot summer nights, the family had a ready and nearby oasis: Viento Park, now known as Viento State Park.

 

"The kids would play in the creek with the pollywogs and the minnows and so forth," Pattison said, "and the adults would sit around and drink the good whiskey."

 

Ah, those were the times of pilfered watermelons and the heyday of a two-lane highway that linked the rural Columbia River Gorge with big city Portland, Pattison recalled.

 

Pattison, the 80-year-old chairman of the Historic Columbia River Highway Advisory Committee, reminisced as he helped dedicate a 1-mile segment of the Historic Columbia River Highway State Trail between Viento State Park and Starvation Creek State Park.

 

The trail segment, with its fresh layer of asphalt, is part of the 11 miles of the old highway path that have been built or restored since 1996.

 

The ultimate goal is to create or restore 12 more miles and reconnect Portland to The Dalles for a recreational path serving hikers and cyclists -- without having to travel along the shoulder of Interstate 84.

 

But I-84 sits on top of many of those 12 miles of historic highway. Worse still, one of the grandest sights of the old highway -- the five "windows" of the Mitchell Point Tunnel, also known as "The Tunnel of Many Vistas" -- was destroyed to make way for the interstate.

 

"If we knew then what we know now, we wouldn't have blasted that off the face of the earth," said Kevin Price, Gorge district manager of the Oregon Parks and Recreation Department.

 

But neither Friends of the Columbia Gorge nor the Oregon Department of Transportation is deterred.

 

They have estimated costs and crafted concept plans to connect those 12 miles by 2016, the centennial of the opening of the old highway's first miles. And the new path, they vow, would not exceed the 5 percent elevation gain adhered to by Samuel C. Lancaster, the engineer who located and designed the highway in Multnomah County, setting the standard for future highway construction.

 

But it would cost about $55 million to connect those last dozen miles, considered the most challenging segments of the project.

 

A $1 million ODOT Transportation Enhancement Program grant paid for the 1-mile path between the Starvation Creek and Viento state parks.

 

In March, as part of the ongoing project, the restored Oneonta Tunnel reopened. It was built in 1914 and closed in 1948. "

 

Obligatory climbing photo below from today's climb.

 

hmmmmm - I might not have much hair anymore but at least I can still get up 5.10. (sometimes:-)

 

Here's one for Don and Eric, since you always post the photo of the circled bolts on a cliff to show what a "visual eyesore" and affront this is to you, find a single damn bolt in the picture of me drilling an anchor below. This was taken from @ 20 feet out of the base and there are 22 huge 1/2-13 x 6-1/4 stainless steel wedge anchors with the larger Fixe Stainless steel hangers on a route within feet of me. Find a SINGLE bolt please. Just one. Pic rotated to make Drew happy.

 

 

 

 

Ciao!

 

Edited to add: photo by Ujahn Davisson and Ponderosa has a great point. In fact, I don't know why use of (non-fixed) pitons haven't been banned in places like Yosemite, I'd support and rather see a bolt stuck in than to see the degradation of cracks that occurs with repeated and heavy pin use.

Edited August 17, 2009 by billcoe

[G-spotter]

And you've been taking camera tilt lessons from Mike Layton.

[Fairweather]

meanwhile, in China:

 

 

 

 

Chinese Trash Fisherman: "What's a computer? Can I use an Internet to catch more trash?"

 

1.) The above picture is brought to you by Choada and the communist regulatory system he promotes.

 

2.) Choada's patronizing brand of racism vis a vis the Chinese people wears only the thinnest of veils.