Climbing with minors - legal implications?

[DPS]

I realize that asking for legal advice on teh interwebs is akin to asking for medical advice, but I know that more than a couple of lawyers post here so I thought I would ask. What are the legal implications of climbing with a minor? What if I am climbing with a minor and (G-D forbid!) he is injured or worse?

 

TIA

[ivan]

i'd assume you could have your scrotum nailed to the wall by his/her folks/guardian, even if you'd had them sign a thousand waivers beforehand

[mattp]

Good luck getting any kind of real answer to that question. We have thousand year old rules of law like assumption of the risk which protect you but you could lose everything you have and end up in jail.

[akhalteke]

Yer never safe homey. Like Ivan and Matt said, despite the protections and even waivers, the lack of human decency will leave you exposed to ruin just because you were trying to do a good thing.

 

I am glad I grew up in a time/ with people that wouldn't even think of such things so I could learn.

 

[mattp]

I am glad I grew up in a time/ with people that wouldn't even think of such things so I could learn.

 

Nice fantasy. You were lucky enough not to get involved in such a tragedy, perhaps, but you're fooling yourself if you asset that nobody you ever climbed with and none of their family members would ever have sought to recover damages from somebody they perceived as being irresponsible in a way that led to their becoming disabled or killed. Lets see somebody try to answer his question rather than stirring the pot with the rhetoric that belongs in one of your political "discussions."

[MarkMcJizzy]

but you could lose everything you have{comma} and end up in jail.

 

but you could lose everything you have and end up in jail.

 

but you could lose everything you have and end up end up baa in jail.

[ivan]

 

I am glad I grew up in a time/ with people that wouldn't even think of such things so I could learn.

1960's mom: i'm glad little jimmy spends so much time w/ father mike - a preist will keep him so safe from those dirty little hippies!

[MarkMcJizzy]

I am glad I grew up in a time/ with people that wouldn't even think of such things so I could learn.

 

Nice fantasy. You were lucky enough not to get involved in such a tragedy, perhaps, but you're fooling yourself if you asset that nobody you ever climbed with and none of their family members would ever have sought to recover damages from somebody they perceived as being irresponsible in a way that led to their becoming disabled or killed. Lets see somebody try to answer his question rather than stirring the pot with the rhetoric that belongs in one of your political "discussions."

 

I think you're trying to stir the pot with Scott, and hide behind the original post.

[marc_leclerc]

depends on the minor and the family amd the situation. My family would be extremely unlikely to sueif I got hurt. Say my partner just untied from me and ditched me on a big mountain and I fell in a crevasse and barely survived they might do something against the person. If I just ran it WAY out fell and got myself screwed up they would just say that I learned a lesson.

[Dane]

Been a topic at my house this year about Braydon (who I have climbed with) and Marc (who I have not climbed with).

 

With a background in guiding internationally and a formal education in recreation a lot would be laid at my feet if an accident occured in my party no matter what age of those involved or the circumstances.

 

If there is an injury or loss our society generally looks to be reimbursed financially for that loss. So while people my think their families would never sue....if you aren't around who knows what the survivors will actually do. (or their pain and suffering) All it takes is a lawyer willing to be involved. The more you have finanacially the more likely you are to be sued in any venue.

 

18 year olds are generally by definition NOT RESPONSIBLE for themselves in the USA. You can figure where that leaves you climbing with one. The closer you are to the minor's age the better I suspect in relationship to being held responsible for the outcome of any accident.

 

All that said a good liability waiver signed by the minor's parents or guardian along with a frank discussion on the dangers of climbing and the current goals would be a good thing to do imo.

 

 

 

[akhalteke]

I am glad I grew up in a time/ with people that wouldn't even think of such things so I could learn.

 

Nice fantasy. You were lucky enough not to get involved in such a tragedy, perhaps, but you're fooling yourself if you asset that nobody you ever climbed with and none of their family members would ever have sought to recover damages from somebody they perceived as being irresponsible in a way that led to their becoming disabled or killed. Lets see somebody try to answer his question rather than stirring the pot with the rhetoric that belongs in one of your political "discussions."

 

Well Matt. I was actually talking about me being the young buck and getting a chance from the old crusties. You know, when I was 11-12 years old and I would go out hiking and climbing with people from my church. Why are you so damn confrontational?

[rob]

Dan, an interesting question. One point to note is that I think the mounties let minors into the basic climbing course. I think they have to be 16, and their parents have to sign some form.

 

Theoretically, couldn't you have their parents sign the same form? You're more qualified than the mountie instructors I've met.

[akhalteke]

Only problem is, these "liability forms" do not protect you from all liability. Ridiculous I know, but such is the case in this litigious society.

[eldiente]

Interesting question, although I'm not sure taking a minor climbing is any different than taking an adult climbing with you, both could sue you just as easy. If your adult partner is killed while climbing, his/her family could try to sue you just the same as a minor's family could.

 

Also, I'd say taking a kid climbing is no different than driving your neighbors kid to school, both have risks. If your willing to drive someone else's kid around in your car, your already taking more of a risk than you would be going climbing with the same kid. Thoughts?

[DirtyHarry]

I realize that asking for legal advice on teh interwebs is akin to asking for medical advice, but I know that more than a couple of lawyers post here so I thought I would ask. What are the legal implications of climbing with a minor? What if I am climbing with a minor and (G-D forbid!) he is injured or worse?

 

TIA

 

I'd be happy to research the issue for you at the bargain rate of only $150.00 / hr.

[MarkMcJizzy]

Also, I'd say taking a kid climbing is no different than driving your neighbors kid to school, both have risks. If your willing to drive someone else's kid around in your car, your already taking more of a risk than you would be going climbing with the same kid. Thoughts?

 

Driving is more common than climbing, and auto insurance is more common than climbing insurance.

[goatboy]

You are more likely to be sued successfully if you have in some way accepted money to climb with a minor.

 

How about playing baseball with a kid who gets hurt? You COULD be sued for that....but would it be a successful case? Only if you were negligent and did things that are outside of the norms -- it is normal for kids to wear batting helmets for example. If you skipped that and a kid got beaned and brain damaged.... you would be more likely to be found negligent by a jury than if you had followed all the standards of the industry.

 

Extrapolate that to climbing -- follow industry standards -- have a good relationship with the parents and educate them about the inherent risks of climbing -- and I believe that will go a lot further than a liability waiver, which doesn't absolve you from negligence if you fail to do the preceding things.

 

That's about three cents worth of advice I reckon.

[DPS]

Also, I'd say taking a kid climbing is no different than driving your neighbors kid to school, both have risks. If your willing to drive someone else's kid around in your car, your already taking more of a risk than you would be going climbing with the same kid. Thoughts?

 

Here is the thing: I have a big ass auto insurance policy with an even bigger umbrella policy should I be involved in an auto accident. I doubt it would cover a climbing accident.

[powderhound]

Most courts seem to have ruled that in the instance of land owner/climber litigation suits that climbing is "so inherently dangerous" that EVERYONE knows the very real possibility of injury or death; striking the liability of the landowner.

 

However, in regards to minors, I could see the courts placing a greater burden on the ADULT regardless of either climbing background. I would look into the liability of coaches to players, some coaches have now been found negligent in the deaths of their players and as, such liable.

 

[Dane]

Only problem is, these "liability forms" do not protect you from all liability. Ridiculous I know, but such is the case in this litigious society.

 

Nothing will protect you from litigation. But the more informed both parties are the better chances of you avoiding or assuming any liability that you shouldn't be responsible for and the flip side, where everyone actually takes rsponsibility for themselves and their own actions.

 

But with a minor/adult relationship you have an obvious disparity of responsibility in the general public's eyes...or the so called "common man".

 

 

Adult = responsible. Minor = not responsible

 

You and your attorney's first job as a defendant will be to educate your jury as to what are the industry standards and why what you did is a common and finally what you were doing was "safe" within those guidelines.

 

Depending on conditions and experience the S. side of Hood might well be resonable where the North side of Rainier in winter might not be. As the level of risk goes up the burden of liability would generally fall back to the most experienced people in the party.

 

First question I'd ask, "Is it safe for a 12 year Jonny to climb the Terminator as his first ice climb with Daniel the ice climber with 20 years experience on WI8." Most average joe blows, in the jury would say...."no". Things aren't going to get any better from there. What ever you do it needs to past the smell test...."what would the "common man" see as resonable under the circumstances". Most won't appreciate climbing in any form as reasonable.

 

 

[Mon_Col]

Another point that was brought up a lot in my outdoor rec program was that the reason many waivers fail to protect companies is when they are not backed up by leaders and companies who make a reasonable effort to make participants aware of the hazards and risk throughout an outing so that the participants can make informed decisions.

 

Essentially, if participants are truly aware of the risks they expose themselves to then they are responsible for the decisions they make.

 

It would seem like, in the case of a minor, that would mean that the parents of a minor should also know the risks that their child could be exposed to so that if something went wrong they couldn't say "We never knew something like this could happen."

 

However, that is more geared toward programs offering trips to minors, not individuals who aren't being paid.

 

 

 

[Braydon]

Dan, an interesting question. One point to note is that I think the mounties let minors into the basic climbing course. I think they have to be 16, and their parents have to sign some form.

 

Theoretically, couldn't you have their parents sign the same form? You're more qualified than the mountie instructors I've met.

14 for basic but 16 for intermediate

[robertjoy]

As an adult advisor with a youth climbing club (40 members, 12 peaks per year)I have had 15 years experience climbing with teenagers. You MUST have the parents sign a waiver/acknowlegement-of-risk for each activity. IE, don't climb without the parents' clear understanding of the planned activity: in the event of a death, this would give you a chance to avoid a presumption of negligence. Second, Have the liability coverage on your homeowner or renter policy increased to $500,000 or $1 million. Then act prudently, and don't sweat it.

[marc_leclerc]

Its tricky because on bigger stuff the adult will not always be in direct contact with the minor at all times. Lets say me and an adult are rapping off V-Threads and he goes first being the heavier of the two of us. I clean the backup and go to rap but don't pay attention and set up wrong. The adult isn't there to check me to make sure I haven't f&*ked up and I end up hurtling down 300m of ice to my death. Whose fault would that be?

I would say that is my fault because I have climbed a fair bit and 'know what I'm doing' in my opinion and its my resposibility to make sure i rappel properly, but the average joe off the street may hear about it and say that me adult partner should have somehow made sure I was setup properly.... its hard to say much on the topic and I don't think a defined rule for climbing with minors can be devised.

 

When Don S and I climbed Landmark a couple weeks ago we got to the base, looked at the first three pitches and soloed them. We both knew we were capable of soloing these easy pitches and were not concerned. If I had done something retarded and fallen off however some mat say that Don should have made us rope up b/c Im a minor. IMO we BOTH decided to solo it, I never asked for a rope and I assumed all the risk of doing so.

Even when I take the sharp end when climbing with an adult If I fell and got hurt some may say that being a minor I shouldnt have been leading although I assumed all the risk of doing so.

I honestly don't feel I should be treated any differently than an adult climber by my partners.

 

[Choada_Boy]

I honestly don't feel I should be treated any differently than an adult climber by my partners.

 

And that's why you're still a kid, because you don't really get it yet. You're not making decisions with an adult mind, based on a wealth of adult experience, nor are you capable of fully weighing the consequences of your actions in the same way that an adult would, because you can't at your age. You're still a kid. Sure, you've got talent and motivation, but you're not the real deal yet.