Japanese Garden Anchors Chopped

[tradclimbguy]

I guess I mine as well drudge it up.

 

Early this season still one chain.

Last weekend two chains

Yesterday, no chains, no bolts

 

Still put a rope up on it although lugging two 4's was fun to protect the start and middle of the OW. Not sure what to think. I enjoyed pumping out the first short pitch on lazy days.

 

Got an awfully self righteous crew out their chopping things lately. They should have also chopped the 1 bolt in the middle of the first pitch and pulled the pin too while they were at it, but I guess their ego's must have been enough of a load.

 

Discuss...

Edited April 30, 2007 by tradclimbguy

[Weekend_Climberz]

Their is a pathetic slab at Exit 38 they should go and concentrate their efforts on.

[fenderfour]

Do people ever get tired of this bullshit? Let things be. Don't bolt old climbs, don't chop bolts. It's not your rock, it's EVERYBODY's rock.

 

Churlish douchebaggery

[plexus]

Do people ever get tired of this bullshit? Let things be. Don't bolt old climbs, don't chop bolts.

 

Werd! My feeling is well-established areas such as Index, Squamish, etc. should be how they are. In Colorado there are climbing councils for such areas as the Flatirons and Eldorado Canyon, which I thought was the oddest thing when I moved here from Washington. While I don't agree in bringing governing bodies into creation for climbing, when climbers aren't able to police themselves, it could be a necessary step.

[Alpinfox]

 

America's efforts to marginalize the role of persons of Japanese ancestry know no bounds.

 

Revisionist history in action!

 

[jonah]

I have some thoughts about who may have done it, but it would be nice if that person came forward and owned up. Bolting and chopping is not helpful at all, from an access perspective. It makes us all look like we are not cohesive and simply bicker amongst ourselves. Then, when we want to work with landowners on access issues, it is harder to claim that we represent a unified group of climbers, and harder to get landowners to negotiate at all.

 

I understand the history behind Japanese Gardens and the rationale for removing the bolts. But the fact is, the lower portion remains one of the few moderate routes at LTW. That is important because it allows a group of climbers to enjoy Index that otherwise may never go there. While I am not condoning "dumbing down" routes, Index needs supporters in the community. It can get supporters by having more people climb there (which means having some moderate climbs available). Without people like that, there will be fewer people to do the necessary work of maintenance, cleanup, etc. (witness the total lack of today's better Index climbers who showed up to the cleanup last weekend).

 

What's even more important is that enough people love Index and climb there that if there is ever a threat to access, there will be enough of a community to rally and protect it. That won't happen if we have to rely on the handful of dedicated bad asses who climb there regularly (this isn't a criticism - a lot of you are my good friends), because, frankly, they generally can't be counted on to volunteer their time for access issues, they mostly don't have any money for necessary fundraising, and most importantly, there just aren't enough of them to make a big enough constituency that governmental agencies will care about what they have to say.

 

I would like to hear from the chopper and come to some kind of consensus on this, but I support replacing the anchors.

 

Please note that the above statements are only my personal views and don't necessarily represent the views of any organizations I may be affiliated with or represent.

Edited April 30, 2007 by jonah

[crazy_t]

I used to live in Eldorado Canyon. Though it was ugly for the community to wrestle with the issue until they came up with the "bolting application- committee" thing that is now in place, I think it is very effective. New routes are put up, but not rampantly and in a style that essentially preserves the character of the area. Old pins/anchor bolts being replaced are also subject to review, and then are sorted out. People generally came to agree that Eldo is a special place, and some type of system had to be created where these issues could be sorted out before they affected the rock. There are still bolting war issues all around Boulder, but Eldo seems to be working.

 

I don't pretend to know any of the elements of the issues at Index, but know it is a beautiful spot, with amazing quality rock and lines. I'm sure that people on both sides of the issue are acting in the interest of the Index that they believe in; but the result of the squabbling sounds like it's affecting the rock. Maybe a meeting in some "neutral ground" to start to figure out how to preserve this epic area while respecting all of the community that developed it and uses it? Again, maybe this has all happened before, I am still pretty new to the Washington climbing scene and have spent a lot less time on rock here than I did in CO, so my 2c is likely uninformed and likely useless without the history/context. But I've climbed there, it's an amazing area, and think it deserves to be treated that way.

[fenderfour]

I don't think we (the bigger we) need to know who chopped the bolts. Finger pointing only leads to self-righteous bullshit and division among the community that uses the crag.

 

I am disappointed that they are gone. I'm one of the moderate climbers that gets an ass-kicking at Index. Do I want them replaced? No. Let it stop somewhere. If someone was assholish enough to chop them after they had been in place for years, they will most certainly chop any new bolts that show up.

[Jens]

I'm never one to yank bolts but if the guy that yanked these wanted to be firm in their convictions, I can think of several thousand other bolts that warrant pulling before the Japanese gardens bolts. (Condomorphine addiction and ininite bliss come to mind just to name a few).

As a result of this action, J.Gardens will moss up a little more (less traffic) and longer lines will show up on Godzilla, p.ambitions, and thin fingers, and a statement isn't really made.

[EWolfe]

Well put, Jens.

 

Aspirations are born of proximity.

 

 

edit.

Edited May 1, 2007 by MisterE

[Blake]

If yanking out silly non-pitch-ending anchors is the goal, wouldn't Sagitarius prove a better candidate than JG?

 

Those anchors on JG were at a standing ledge, just below where the climbing got way harder. Most index climbers can do .10a, but not the .11+ of the above part.

 

However, some of those midpoint anchors on Sagitarius seem much less usefull.

[lancegranite]

Try this: Be a man and stand up for your actions, you fucking pussy.

 

 

[Alex]

Given that the ethics at Index are far from pure, I am surprised that someone decided to be a bolt cop on this route in particular. But perhaps not that surprised, since it was the topic of a thread here in recent history.

 

But it's really no sweat. Some of us have drills (me), and liked that intermediate anchor well enough that it may just reappear again.

[tradclimbguy]

All very good points made so far. It's nice to see we can actually have a conversation instead of an all out spray war.

 

I would agree that if they were trying to make some point this really wasn't the best way to do it especially since it was such poor form. Like I said, why pick and choose what you pull on the route, I mean they pulled the mid point anchors but not the other bolt and pin on the route??? How hypocritical is that??? Jens is right that the route will probably get a little mossier and there will undoubtedly always be a longer line on the other couple easier routes now. Great thanks...

 

Why not pull the anchors on Rogers Corner, Sagitarious, Bat Skins, Thin fingers, Model worker, Iron horse and GM while you're at it??? Those are just a few off the top of my head all on the LTW that have "intermediate" anchors or even multiple intermediate anchors. I mean everybody climbs with a 70m at index, why not pull every intermediate and force everybody to be hard men. We all know that works real well.

 

So as far as putting the anchors back, if that is going to happen. What about tossing in a set of the Petzl Long life bolts and a pair of Metolius Rap hangers? More or less tamper proof, much less visual impact, no chains necessary and people could still TR the hell out of it with a couple draws clipped in. Just a thought.

[Alex]

What about tossing in a set of the Petzl Long life bolts and a pair of Metolius Rap hangers? More or less tamper proof, much less visual impact, no chains necessary and people could still TR the hell out of it with a couple draws clipped in. Just a thought.

 

Yeah, thats a good suggestion.

[catbirdseat]

This unilateral action has got to stop. It's total bullshit. It's time to do things by consensus.

[John Frieh]

What about tossing in a set of the Petzl Long life bolts and a pair of Metolius Rap hangers? More or less tamper proof, much less visual impact, no chains necessary and people could still TR the hell out of it with a couple draws clipped in. Just a thought.

 

Yeah, thats a good suggestion.

 

We have a similar issue down here at rocky butte... who ever they are felt so strongly about no bolts ( ) on certain routes they took the time to hand saw 2 - 1" bolts off

 

Glue ins might be the way to go...

 

That or literally drill a v thread in the rock and let peeps v thread the thing

[chucK]

Isn't there a chockstone at the ledge where you could use slings to set up a rap anchor?

[fenderfour]

Isn't there a chockstone at the ledge where you could use slings to set up a rap anchor?

 

I don't remember one up there. Maybe higher past the short anchors?

[Blake]

Why not pull the anchors on Rogers Corner,

 

Very good point, I bet that those first anchors on Roger's Corner were used about 1/10 as much the JG anchors were. I wonder why those weren't chopped?

[G-spotter]

This unilateral action has got to stop. It's total bullshit. It's time to do things by consensus.

 

There is no such thing as climber consensus.

Do whatever the hell you feel like.

If someone disagrees, they can do whatever they feel like.

 

In the case of bolts, whatever situation exists when the choppers and rebolters both get bored and quit is the "effective consensus".

[richard_noggin]

This unilateral action has got to stop. It's total bullshit. It's time to do things by consensus.

 

There is no such thing as climber consensus.

Do whatever the hell you feel like.

If someone disagrees, they can do whatever they feel like.

 

In the case of bolts, whatever situation exists when the choppers and rebolters both get bored and quit is the "effective consensus".

 

Your right there! Why is it that climbers that place bolts feel that they are doing a community service and do not hide it, but the climber that chopped these bolts does not have the balls to stand up for what he believes.So Dru is right who will get tired first?

[catbirdseat]

Why not pull the anchors on Rogers Corner,

 

Very good point, I bet that those first anchors on Roger's Corner were used about 1/10 as much the JG anchors were. I wonder why those weren't chopped?

Because whoever chopped Japanese Gardens did it for purely SELFISH reasons. He wanted to ensure that fewer climbers would be on what he considers to be HIS route, so that he doesn't have to wait.

[mattp]

I don’t think you can leap to conclusions about what “that guy” was thinking, Catbird. Who knows – maybe they can’t even climb the route at all but simply wanted to make a statement. Or maybe not – certainly whatever statement it may have been is not completely clear at this point.

 

Personally, I could go either way on those particular anchors and I’m most persuaded by those who are suggesting restraint. I’d prefer to see more discussion here and at the crag before further actions are undertaken.

[pope]

Just to add a little balance here....I won't miss it. I'm happy to buy beers for the perp. We need somebody to fight the tide of grid bolting. What was the justification for an anchor 35 feet up the middle of an established crack climb? Just 'cause the climb starts out kind of easy? Guys, the first 15 feet of Iron Horse would make a nice little moderate climb. Maybe we need an anchor up there below that undercling. Come to think of it, I can free climb the last 30 feet of City Park. Maybe we could stick an anchor there so that I'd have a nice place to transition to free climbing mode.

 

Increased traffic, convenience, moderate climbing made available where none existed. And don't forget safety. These justifications will one day be applied to the bolting of every crack at Index.