Rangers Lie

[mattp]

Have you ever been lied to or discouraged by "the man" offering bogus information? What can one do, besides never trusting anything a ranger says?

I once called the ranger station in Sedro Wooley to ask about ski conditions at Washington Pass. The ranger said that the skiing was poor, avalanche conditions were highly dangerous, there was no place to park, and the campgrounds were all closed. Three days later, I called the ranger back and told him that the skiing was great, the snowpack stable, the DOT had plowed plenty of parking, and two of the campgrounds were open. He asked: why are you telling me this? He made it clear that it was not his job, as the person answering the backcountry recreation line, to provide information helpful for climbers and skiers.

Many times, I have been misinformed by these folks. But even worse, they lie! Once, in Icicle Creek, a ranger lady standing in front of a gate told me the road was closed and we might as well head somewhere else. When I replied that I had been told by another ranger that the road was to open that day, she told me that it was going to open in 20 minutes!

I've had these experiences in National Parks, National Forests, and at State Parks. But not so much in Canada, Europe, or Asia.

[Rodchester]

I have had many of the same experiences. General rule of thumb is to GREATLY discount what they say.

I think they just try to keep people out of the back country...maybe to avoid having to work? Who knows...but they do lie...even more than attorneys.

[Wopper]

Remember, a ranger can tell other folks all the stories he wants but never lie to another ranger or an officer. There is an army depending on us.

Oh, wrong type of rangers. Yes, I agree, the man can come up with some ill informed advice bordering on bold face lies. Rodchester, I am not sure if they lie more than attorneys though. I have heard some of your stories!

Though they seem to be somewhat skeptical until you prove to them you have a clue the most well informed rangers I have encountered are in the Tetons. They are out there climbing and seem to know the Park and the routes incredibly well.

[This message has been edited by Wopper (edited 06-20-2001).]

[To_The_Top]

Rangers do lie or give crappy info, and I always take what they say with a grain of salt. I have gotten more misinformation in the North Cascades than, say Rainier NP. I think the reason they give the bad info is because they think that the person calling is just out for a first time hike, and the fact is that the ranger you are speaking to is not a climber.

If the ranger is a climber than they give way better info to climbers then the ones that sit all day or on a power trip. Once when taking a nonclimbing friend up Mt Ruth in the north cascades I ran into two different rangers along the way. The first ranger(pleated uniform) commented that he was glad to see the rope and quizzed me on the ten essentials (ya, right!) and told me about the crevasses that a yawning every where. The second had a ruffeled uniform and when I asked about these "crevasses" he laughed and said that he saw one that was a 100 yards to the left that opened in the last two days, and then said he was going to solo the hill later. When I call or talk to a ranger I ask if they have personally been there (most say no) or if they have climbed around the area lately (mostly not).

The Rainier rangers in the last 5 years are way better now that they are climbers themselves (at the sign in at Paradise or White River)for the most part.

TTT

[This message has been edited by To The Top (edited 06-20-2001).]

[chriss]

On Rainier earlier this summer. Caught up to a group of "climbing" rangers. 2 days in a row they said weather was going "bad" that night and we should go down. They talked to someone on the radio both evenings.

Wrong both times. Was a nice weekend. We topped out to blue skies.

I'm not sure if they are just trying to discourage "high risk" behavior or they really think they are some kind of all-knowing authority.

 

chris

[jblakley]

Not to say rangers never lie, but I have found MRNP climbing rangers to be generally very helpful and friendly. They get their weather reports pretty much from the same people we do...meteorologists, which we all know is about as accurate as a horoscope.

[Kyle]

I think rangers sometimes hand out disinformation deliberately, just to weed out the punters & wannabes. Most serious climbers will politely listen to a ranger's speech, but then go and do what they want anyway, preferring to rely on their own best judgement and knowing that they proceed at their own risk.

[chucK]

Here are my ranger obfuscation experiences up at Marblemount. I was heading up to WA pass with a buddy that had to leave a day early. We planned to meet at Marblemount and carpool from there. I called the RS and this helpful ranger told me of this trailhead right behind the ranger station at which I could park and leave a car. When we get there, I open my big mouth to the ranger now on call, apparently a different one, to ask exactly where is this TH. He gets all huffy about me wanting to leave a car there. I asked him directly if I would get a ticket if I left the car there and he gave me an evasive non-answer ("Might or might not", I think he said). We parked and didn't get ticketed. I don't know what his problem was.

Another time I was up there trying to get information and this guy wasn't revealing any. I had called from home and they told me there were still permits left for the Eldorado Arm. When I got there, they said there weren't any. I asked for other places to go and he just basically says "I don't know". Then after I've given up and am looking at maps and such he starts spraying to his rangerette colleague how he was up nude sunbathing at Pyramid Lake and these tourists (you should have heard the condesencion in his voice on that word) arrive and were all freaked out. He then starts spewing how stupid they were to be freaked out by his nudity. I guess the taxpaying minions were cramping his style. Gotta love those public servants (that we're paying).

Chuck

[chucK]

Oh by the way. I've also had very good experiences with rangers at the Marblemount station. It's hit and miss I guess.

One tip: If you're getting backcountry permits you will be required to listen to the latest theories on the best methods of feces disposal. Unless you've got a lot of time to waste, resist the constant temptation interrupt the potty presentation with the obvious witticisms.

Chuck

[Cpt.Caveman]

My only experience was with a pretty hot lady that was working at the marblemount one. I recall a friend looking down her shirt

[dkemp]

mattp,

you bet, its happened to me many times over the years.

ONP desk jockeys told me the snowfinger on Mt Anderson was 'impassible' - a week later we climbed it. Summit City.

When we informed the deskjockey ranger lady at the Hoh R.S. of our intention to climb Olympus, she put on quite a performance. Wide-eyed, she exclaimed "have you notified your NEXT OF KIN?!" Two days later, the backcountry ranger at Glacier Meadows informed us that he had just returned from the summit and wished us well. Conditions were firm and great - Summit City.

Glacier Pk rangers (Darrington) warned of dire weather conditions, 'dangerous' was the word they used - we hiked to Boulder Basin in whiteout but climbed next day in clear blue skies. La ciudad de Summito.

Never received misinformation from MRNP rangers. Never had trouble at Sedro Wooley either.

-Dox

 

[scot'teryx]

The Mt Shasta rangers told us a ton of misleading information as well this past week, but our climb went well, with absolutely none of the problems they said were going to occur. I think it is best to listen to other climbers!

Scott

[Alpine_Tom]

Last winter three of us were going to attempt Little Tahoma, so I called and talked to a climbing ranger, who said the conditions were fairly good. I asked specifically about registering early at Paradise, and he said “no problem, you can show up at midnight.” He didn’t mention that the road up to Paradise was gated at Longmire every night from 5:00 PM to 9:00 AM or so during the winter. Turned out that even the lady at the latte stand outside the park knew about it. Not this ranger, though.

[forrest_m]

I would agree that you have to take a the advice you receive from rangers with a huge grain of salt, but you have to see it from their side. I climb pretty regularly with a couple of MRNP rangers, and the stories they tell about the freds who come up the mountain... if a guy shows up at camp shurman, say, wearing jeans and a flannel shirt, carrying nothing more than a "survival knife", they actually have no legal way to prevent him from continuing up. However, they're the ones who are going to have the unpleasant and possibly dangerous job of dealing with the mess if he does get into trouble. So their only means of preventing this is to exaggerate the dangers. I'm not saying it makes it right, just understandable. I think the rangers just assume that if you know what you're doing, you'll use your own judgement.

On the other hand, giving out wrong information (road openings, etc.) is bullshit but probably no more endemic than in any other government bureauacracy. In North Cascades, I've found the most accurate info. is usually from the seasonal employees, not the full-time rangers, since they're usually there because they want to spend the summer in the mountains. You just have to be choosy - there are lots of kinds of rangers. The climbing rangers at rainier are pretty hard core climbers, while the guy at the desk in Longmire might be a nature trail coordinator from boston...

Best info from rangers: the info desk at the icefields centre, in the canadian rockies. The people in the jasper ranger sta. didn't even know where we could buy a map; at the IC, they made us a photocopy of theirs (for free). They waive the backcountry permit fee for climbers. They were knowledgable and friendly. After the third time we went in (over a 2 week trip) the ranger even styled us out with a free campsite. How cool is that?

[This message has been edited by forrest_m (edited 06-29-2001).]

[specialed]

Ranger station in Zion is awesome. Don't know shit about climbing but, duh, don't expect them too. There way nice and have a slew of notebooks with topos of almost every route done in the canyon. They'll take the time to talk to you, show you the books, give you directions, and photocopy to topos for like ten cents.

[willstrickland]

Ahhh, the notorious book(s) of Zion fiction. There's more bogus info in those than in my posts to this board. People off route on pitches "correcting" ratings and other such nonsense. Although they are better than Bjornstadt's topos which are completely full of shit. Guy might want to at least look at the route with a telescope before publishing some half-truth "topo". It's kinda cool to see original hand drawn topos from first ascentionists (plenty of "names" in there)and various funny notes.

Zion rangers are hit or miss. While waiting for the walls to dry out this March my partner and I were contemplating doing some slot canyons and the ranger we spoke with all but forbid us to do the ones we were considering. We asked "Are they closed a certain time of year, or are all the permits already issued, or what?" . Reply: "It's dangerous". Well no shit asshole, that's why we're trying to go there. So we ask "Well is it against the regulations to go there?" Reply: "It's too dangerous this time of year". Then finally we get to the point: "Just tell us, is it going to get us in trouble with the law and are we violating any rules, regs, or statutes?" Reply: "Well no it's not illegal, but I don't recommend it and wouldn't do it this time of year."

Well thanks for your concern RangerRick, you wouldn't be up on the wall routes either, but we are not you and you are not us so cut the bullshit. I know one guy is no basis to judge people, but after multiple run-ins with another prick ranger in Camp4 that eventually led me to file a formal complaint on behalf of myself and six others, I'm beginning to dislike those Smokey the Bear hats.

[specialed]

Yeah, one ranger in Zion told me to get rid of a small piece of sage on my dashboard because "its illegal to remove anything natural, including vegetation, from national parks," and that gave her the right to search my car if she wanted. Such power tripping jerkoffs.

[Yossarian]

My partner dropped his pack on Forbidden Peak. He later called the rangers to see if they found it during one of their training exercises. They claimed to have seen the pack on the glacier but didn't pick it up, even though they were able to identify all the gear in the pack including a watch and camera. Then the gypsy rangers slapped him with a $50 fine for not obtaining a parking permit. Worthless.

[DPS]

Yossarian,

Is that your real name, or did you choose the alias from Catch 22?

Dan

[Kyle]

Everyone (incl me) slags on the rangers at times, but then you read about crap like this (below), and you just gotta respect them for handling a tough & often thankless job.

--------------------------------------------

01-310 - Saguaro NP (AZ) - Natural Resource Destruction, Resisting

Arrest

On May 31st, Robert Balon, 41, of Tucson drove his Ford Explorer

approximately one mile cross-country through the park, causing over

$60,000 in natural resource damages in the Rincon Mountain District.

The vehicle was discovered stuck, with its engine running and doors

locked. Balon was located a short distance away, sitting naked under a

bush. He refused to cooperate and resisted arrest before being

pepper-sprayed by BLM and NPS rangers and safely handcuffed. Further

investigation revealed that Balon had driven through BLM and private

property, causing additional resource damage, before heading into the

park. Drugs and paraphernalia were located in the vehicle in addition

to over $250 in cash strewn around the cab. Evidence indicates Balon

attempted to set his vehicle on fire. Balon has an extensive criminal

history, including numerous assaults, resisting arrest, and narcotics

violations. He was recently unconditionally released from a state

mental hospital after serving two years of a five-year sentence in

which he was found guilty but insane of aggravated assault on a police

officer. Balon was booked into federal prison on initial charge of

violation of resisting/ impeding/interfering with a federal officer

(18 USC 111). A federal grand jury convened this week for additional

indictment charges. [bo Stone, PR, SAGU, 06/18]

 

[markws]

Once on the way to do the North Face of Mt. Shuksan with my ex-girlfriend we stopped in at the ranger station in Glacier like good little campers. We asked the rangers if they knew what the conditions were like on the N face. They proceded to tell us how extremely dangerous and unstable it was and he started inferring that we weren't experienced enough to do it. I don't know how he could of judged our abilities. It ended up being very amusing because the climbing conditions were awesome and we ended up skiing the line also. If we had told the ranger our intentions of skiing something like that the guy would have freaked out. In hindsight we should have told him just to get a laugh at his reaction.

I've had very poor luck in the Cascades getting reliable skiing conditions from rangers in person or over the phone. Whenever you mention skiing in an alpine/glaciated area they seem to try to do everything in their power to discourage you.

It could be worse. In the Alps I've had French guides tell us that we were going to die for certain when we asked them for beta.

[hollyclimber]

Read this post here, http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000031.html

And then read this here (have to paste this in as of today rather then give the link, since eventually this will be true)

MT RAINIER CURRENT CLIMBING CONDITIONS FROM THE MT RAINIER PARK SITE

Emmons-Winthrop Glacier is in good shape though not at all direct. There are a few small icy patches that require care. The "Corridor" on the Emmons is unusually broken up with crevasses. Above the "Corridor" the route veers sharply right all the way to the Winthrop Glacier and then moves along to the summit close to saddle between Liberty Cap and the Summit. Slots will continue to open with the warmer weather, continually altering the route.

And you will see that it is true that at a minimum, even the Mt Rainier rangers exaggerate sometimes. If you call them, they really give a tough story on the Emmons, according to our fellow cc.com'ers, its not true.

 

[Fairweather]

Last summer my brother and I signed in at White River to climb Little T. I asked the on duty rangers about conditions and they replied that no one had climbed it recently. I checked the sign-out report book at the station and, indeed found no recent reports. It turns out that we had Meany Crest to ourselves that night. When we summitted the next morning I opened the register and read down the list of recent summiteers. I was surprised to see an entry made by a NP Ranger who signed his name and wrote "NPS Patrol".

He had summited solo and THREE DAYS EARLIER. Why didn't he bother to pass on the results of his "patrol" to the general-public-joe-climber at White River Ranger Station via the book or other rangers?? Was he really on "patrol", or just out havin'-a-good-ol'-time on our tax $$$?? Later, we were decending Meany Crest when we ran into some ascending climbers. They had decided to climb "unregistered" because they were told that all Little Tahoma Alpine Zone camp allocations were taken. In fact there was NO ONE ELSE ON THE FUCKIN' MOUNTAIN! I have been similarly lied to about the Echo/Observation/Flett Glacier area and been lied to about snow on Mowich Lake Road(which was gated at Paul Peak) when in fact there was none.

[Colin]

RANGER = TRAIL NAZI

[Lambone]

Rangers can be totally cool, just like some cops. And all you people who are bitching about bad info that you got from some ranger are just upset with your own insequrities. Try leaving the guide book at home, quite asking for beta, and go find out what the wilderness is like for yourself. Or, quit bitchin'...

Give 'um a break, its not like they are making alot of money off of you.