ivan Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 so i didn't pay the parking fee at dog mtn last month; now i get a letter today from the united states district court telling me i have to show up in court next month for not paying (they will not accept payment, i must show up). i'm threatened with arrest if i don't show...well, actually my wife is, since i was driving her car. questions: 1. what the fuck? why the fuck are they wasting my time w/ this penny-ante shit? 2. anyone else gone the scoff-law route on this sorta thing and had their balls chopped off as a result? 3. this seems more serious then the kinda crap i've seen on the board from time to time. is the Man just getting frustrated over this inability to find osama thing and hoping they'll scoop him up by persecuting assholes like myself w/ a distaste for user fees on public lands? anyone looking for pro bono work out there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshK Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 Wait...a**US** district court!? Not some shitty state or county court? What the fuck. Honestly, this is what our tax dollars are going towards? You realize what just a fucking hour of this court's time costs!? Sweet Jeebus... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonG Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 Yup, it happened to my wife and we even had a parking pass! We just forgot to hang it in the window. I sent a letter explaining what happened, but it didn't get connected to the violation because the car was registered under her maiden name. Anywho, to make a long story short . .. we went traveling for two months and returned to find a court summons in our mail box, arngry voicemails from the US Attornys office asking why we didn't show up in court (in Wenatchee no less), and, finally, a letter telling my wife that there was a warrant out for her arrest!!!! We finally got is sorted out, but man, I love to see my tax dollars at work like that. Sheesh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miller Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 was this at a northwest forest pass area??? dang!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobo Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 I'm not really up to speed on the NW Forest Pass issue as others on this board might be, but I hate the whole idea of the NW Forest Pass and Fee Demo. I seem to recall that formalizing the Fee Demo program into a federal law was attached as a rider to the Omnibus Appropriations Bill (Congress's last budget amendment in late '04), and Fee Demo was to become federal (i.e.: **U.S.**) law upon passage of that amendment (which was passed for the sake of having a national budget and thereby avoiding government shutdown). That is probably why ivan and Heinrich are getting letters from the **U.S.** legal system and not the benign "please pay your fee now" envelopes that the Forest Service used to give out. Now the FS has a federal law behind their extortionist scheme, and a big brother to carry out the threat. It was a sneaky way for Congressman Regula to get this Fee Demo bullshit passed into law, but I also understand that there is a way for the public to have it removed. See Scott Silver's site for tips on how to beat this bullshit. And anyone who may know more about this issue than me, please feel free to correct/edit anything that I've posted so that we are dealing with fact on this issue. I'm just going on what I remember happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willstrickland Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 Fed lands, fed regs = Fed courts. No surprise there. Similarly, if you get busted with a doobie or DUI in Yos, you be goin' before the US Magistrate and facing federal charges. Ask Winter about the process, he should know. You can likely just call the court clerk's office and get instructions on how to plea/pay the fine without an appearance. Make up a hardship story if you have to. Tell 'em you'll be working a construction job on the east coast and it would costs you over a thousand $ to travel cross country just to show up and pay the small fine and you would be fired from your job for missing the time too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurthicks Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 See Scott Silver's site for tips on how to beat this bullshit. anyone ever try this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobo Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 See Scott Silver's site for tips on how to beat this bullshit. anyone ever try this? Yes, I have. I've used Scott's sample letter for beating the fee at least four or five times since 1997. I have never been "hunted down" by The Law on the fee demo issue as others on this board have stated they have been. I'm currently purchasing a new home, and if I have a warrant out for my arrest for failure to pay fines, I'm sure I would have heard about it by now. When I bought my last house in 1994, the lender wouldn't approve my loan until I paid a 3-year-old parking ticket from Seattle that an old GF got when she borrowed my car. So I think the law knows who and where I am if they want to come after me. Scott may seem to many to be a bit whacko, but he sincerely believes in his cause. I, for one, have sent in his petition several times over the years. And I thought we were done with all this bullshit at about this time last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted April 19, 2005 Author Share Posted April 19, 2005 does anyone know more about the fee they charge for hiking at dog mountain? is it in fact the new RAT fee, like the old fee demo fee? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 Ivan (and others...), please take no offense, but... I have to say I think it's fine (no pun intended) they're standing solid on their claims. I bet the back of your ticket says something like "If you don't pay us, we'll bust your balls." And they have to do it. Why? "cause if they didn't people wouldn't pay and the whoe fucking thing would be a REAL joke. Don't get me wrong, I think the forest pas thing has it's problems and I'm not sure we should be paying (see note below), but I'm glad they at least stick by the rules they've been established. It's only fair to those who exert extra effort/money to follow the rules that those who don't spend the money/jump through the hoops pay for it (anarchists: I'll choose not to listen to you. Call me ignorant. I don't care...) The flip side of it is the parking a mile from the trailhead thing: they know what your doing but just have to accept it 'cause we all play by the rules! The note about paying: I use nf's, parks, and campsites and never pay, and use downtown parking spots often and rarely pay. But I never bitch when I get a ticket. I broke the rules and I'll take the consequences. I'll close by once again saying don't take my comments as an insult, simply my take on enforcement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whirlwind Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 i wouldn't mind so much if the fees actually went to upkeep of the areas but i seriously dout that it does. besides hikeing that extra mile is good training for the true "hardman" or woman for that matter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jordop Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 i wouldn't mind so much if the fees actually went to upkeep of the areas but i seriously dout that it does. besides hikeing that extra mile is good training for the true "hardman" or woman for that matter You mean user-pay models aren't working down there? Good thing BC has gone that way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 i've got news for you they aren't working up here either! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 Ivan (and others...), please take no offense, but... I have to say I think it's fine (no pun intended) they're standing solid on their claims. I bet the back of your ticket says something like "If you don't pay us, we'll bust your balls." And they have to do it. Why? "cause if they didn't people wouldn't pay and the whoe fucking thing would be a REAL joke. Don't get me wrong, I think the forest pas thing has it's problems and I'm not sure we should be paying (see note below), but I'm glad they at least stick by the rules they've been established. It's only fair to those who exert extra effort/money to follow the rules that those who don't spend the money/jump through the hoops pay for it (anarchists: I'll choose not to listen to you. Call me ignorant. I don't care...) The flip side of it is the parking a mile from the trailhead thing: they know what your doing but just have to accept it 'cause we all play by the rules! The note about paying: I use nf's, parks, and campsites and never pay, and use downtown parking spots often and rarely pay. But I never bitch when I get a ticket. I broke the rules and I'll take the consequences. I'll close by once again saying don't take my comments as an insult, simply my take on enforcement. People like you should pay twice. They should leave the rest of us alone. Please don't take this wrong, I just want them to leave me the F*UCK ALONE GODDAMNIT. WE ALREADY OWN THE f*EN LAND. IT'S OURS. Have a nice day, good luck Ivan. And that's my take. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigwalling Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 Max go suck some horse cock... and I don't mean it the way goes on here talk about it... I mean real horse cock! FUCKING LOSER! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshK Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 Post deleted by JoshK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Crash Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 And then you have the dumbasses like me who have a national parks card and paid $30 for the NW forest pass instead of $15 for the (more useful) golden eagle sticker. Live and learn. drC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Couloir Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 Max go suck some horse cock... and I don't mean it the way goes on here talk about it... I mean real horse cock! FUCKING LOSER! Gotta love tolerance and an open mind for a different opinion! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted April 19, 2005 Author Share Posted April 19, 2005 i wouldn't mind so much if the fees actually went to upkeep of the areas but i seriously dout that it does. funny to mention, but i spent most of my time that day on a trail off the backside of dog mtn that connects to gravel roads that follow the powerlines. went for a 15 mile run and spent only 4 or so of those miles on the dog mtn trail - the other 11 miles were either put in by a power compnay for their own profit on public land or were totally overgrown trail so thick w/ brush i pulled a half dozen ticks of me on the way home. i see no value in the parking fee - making a pull-off of the highway costs basically nothing, and so many people bash their way up that trail the trail makes itself. you'd think in a nation w/ an obesity epidemic we'd want to actually try encouraging fat-asses to get out in the woods and get some excercise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbw1966 Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 You'd think that someone parking at a trailhead that requires a fee would be not be surprised when they get a ticket OR the feds enforce it. Find someone with a pass, photocopy it and send the copy in with a letter explaining that you had it but forgot to put it on the dash. I've done this several times and its worked every time--usually when I legitimately forgot to put my snow park permit on the dash. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted April 19, 2005 Author Share Posted April 19, 2005 i'm surprised at neither but nonetheless indignant at both. still trying to figure out what kind of pass it was that i needed so i can work your sorcerous ways, lord williams anyone know what it was that i needed? nw forest pass? i've no real desire to drive back out there to find out... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjor Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 At dog mountain you need the forrest pass. I only know about one trail head in the gorge that doesn't accept the forrest pass as a valid permit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted April 19, 2005 Author Share Posted April 19, 2005 da'lright, so are there any rule-conscious and kindly portland-ites who are equipped w/ a forest pass who want to help me in this subterfuge? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt_Anderson Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 Realize that if you send in a pass that wasn't yours and pass it off as yours that you may be committing a number of crimes, some of them felonies. Depending on the details of how you do it, the potential crimes include obstruction, forgery, perjury and others (these are the correct crime names under state law, Federal statutes are likely a bit different). The federal system is known for having more significant penalties (jail and/or fines). Additionally, forgery and perjury (and some other potential crimes) are considered crimes of dishonesty, which may adversely impact future employment possibilities. You may want to take a step back and think about whether it's worth it. Civil disobedience is one thing. Lying to get out of a fine that you knew you were required to pay is unlikely to be viewed as civil disobedience by a judge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjor Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 Buy your own pass. Make a copy of the permit and the recipte. Mail it to the court and they will most likly dismiss your ticket. Thats atleast what they did with my snow park permit crime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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