thelawgoddess Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 RuMR said: if i think somebody is about to do something and is not conscious of the danger that they are about to engage, i will say something...for my own peace of mind... okay; i didn't quite get that part. i totally agree with that. in climbing and other areas of life. Quote
RuMR Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 ahhhh...great minds think alike! Man, broken bodies suck...it just sucks...and dead is worse... seems like a lot of it lately... Quote
iain Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 as always, you can push your climbing skills on good gear or push your gear placement skills on walk-ups but if you find yourself struggling with both... Quote
Mr._Natural Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 i back off shit all the time, if the pro isn't perfect and the fall isn't clean than fuck it, there's always something else to get on. I did plenty of stupid shit early in my climbing career so I am not about to criticize Anna, however I will say that the line between solid and sketchy can be pretty fuzzy. Sometimes we all put ourselves in "do not fall" situations because we know our limits and accept certain levels of risk, usually we get away with it. If you aren't sure you can place good gear don't lead trad pitches! Quote
Dru Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 kitten said: It is best to have some mental patient teach you the mechanics and priciples of climbing. Be honest about your abilities and never lose the fear. Thanks Jamn! Quote
kitten Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 Mr._Natural said: i back off shit all the time, if the pro isn't perfect and the fall isn't clean than fuck it, there's always something else to get on. I did plenty of stupid shit early in my climbing career so I am not about to criticize Anna, however I will say that the line between solid and sketchy can be pretty fuzzy. Sometimes we all put ourselves in "do not fall" situations because we know our limits and accept certain levels of risk, usually we get away with it. If you aren't sure you can place good gear don't lead trad pitches! Sounds euphonious to me! Quote
Cpt.Caveman Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 There are so many if's and maybe's in everything. You can spin the subject in 360 degrees easily. In both mentioned cases I think the victims were doing things they should not have. You can disect it into 500 pieces or just look at the real big picture which is- They should not have been leading those climbs. It's the truth. Hauling a body out doesn't make you good at placing pro. So that comment has no value concerning gear climbing. You can fall on a bolt line, down a snow slope, off a knife edge snow ridge - whatever and die. Quote
RuMR Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 (edited) Cpt.Caveman said: There are so many if's and maybe's in everything. You can spin the subject in 360 degrees easily. In both mentioned cases I think the victims were doing things they should not have. You can disect it into 500 pieces or just look at the real big picture which is- They should not have been leading those climbs. It's the truth. Hauling a body out doesn't make you good at placing pro. So that comment has no value concerning gear climbing. You can fall on a bolt line, down a snow slope, off a knife edge snow ridge - whatever and die. Captain...couldn't agree more w/ the fact that both A and G had no business on those routes and, had their belayers said something (assuming they knew, if they don't, its a moot point) G would still be here and Anna wouldn't have freaked herself out... You are also right that you or your partner can get whacked on any route out there...why compound the risks...the comment about hauling a body out wasn't meant to imply gear placing skills...quite the contrary, hauling a body out was the result of POOR gear skills...both of those occasions caused me to seriously reconsider climbing...enough to take a break from it... Edited June 10, 2003 by RuMR Quote
Szyjakowski Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 Dru said: kitten said: It is best to have some mental patient teach you the mechanics and priciples of climbing. Be honest about your abilities and never lose the fear. Thanks Jamn! WHO are you callin mental GOAT ROPER Quote
Dave_Schuldt Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 DO WE REALY NEED TO GO OVER THIS AGAIN?!?! Quote
Anna Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 I guess I should be glad that my brush with death has created and interesting discussion about safety and pushing our abilities. I will be the one that learned the lesson but most of you can take a serious look at the situation and apply it to your own decision making. Believe me, the lesson of carefully measuring the risks involved, making a correct go/no go decision and knowing my abilities were learned.....I now apply them to not just climbing but whenever I fly, fight fire, everything. Goran fell just one week after my fall and believe me it still tears me apart that someone so recognized in the climbing community died making the same mistakes I made and I got away by the skin of my teeth. Not the same technical mistakes but by making a decision that compromised abilities. I am haunted by this. All of you are right...I should not have climbed for various reasons-the unfamiliarity with the people I was with, the dependence on the published rating and what people had said about the route...taking their word for it, and most important, my ability to climb in general after not rockclimbing for so long. I also have to blame my relaxed approach to a very serious sport. I haven't climbed since because I am, in a sense, punishing myself for my foolish behavior. I was very emotional about the whole thing when it happened so that will probably explain my hostility at first, but the Kruegers were right, I had already made mistakes with placing gear previous to this accident and didn't learn from them, I took it as a game, not a serious life-threating sport and it took a jolt of this magnitude to set me straight...pretty shitty. I have always climbed TR and did not realize the risks and proper procedures (ie, trad climbing routes below your ablilites) involved moving to trad. I know now that every move I make on rock, snow, in an airplane will be well thought out and overly cautious. RIP Goran Quote
lummox Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 i can honestly say that ive never encountered a life threatening situation while sitting on my couch. even when firearms were drawn. climb on. Quote
Dru Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 the best way to learn to lead trad is to drop acid and free solo Quote
catbirdseat Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 Anna, get yourself out there and climb, dammit! What are you waiting for, the second coming? Get on that damn horse, now! Quote
texplorer Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 There are really several simple rules you can follow: 1) know how to place good pro 2) identify situations where good pro is not possible 3) assess your ability to climb the "proless" section and weigh the risks falling (might include death) 4) understand that it is stand practice that most if not all trad routes will require that at some point you climb above your pro which may or may not be sketchy 5) understand that you won't climb most classic 5.10 and up routes if you don't learn to "run it out" every now and then 6) if you make excuses other than these I am subject to ridicule you for your unwillingness to admit you lack the testicular/ovulary fortitude (only as long as I have done the climb or can do the climb upon request) Notice I didn't mention anything about asking your belayer if you should lead this, hauling your dead body away, or skill level associated wit climbing ability. Some people push their limits in a calculated way whilst others have no clue what they are getting into. I have pushed myself in both ways but thankfully have lived to take only the calculated ones now. If you still wonder about how I think you should climb - read the signature. Quote
RuMR Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 ahhh the rules according to Karsten... If you are learning to lead, put a shitload of gear in and save the runout climbing for heros... Quote
Winter Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 Anna, go climb. Goran's death was tragic, but that incident only relates to you as a result of your own understandle introspection. You've learned your lessons, now put them to work and enjoy yourself. Quote
RuMR Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 Winter said: Anna, go climb. Goran's death was tragic, but that incident only relates to you only as a result of your own understandle introspection. You've learned your lessons, now put them to work and enjoy yourself. AMEN! Quote
Stefan Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 Anna will know when the time is right to go back to climbing. Hell, I broke both my ankles about 2 weeks after Goran's accident from my own rappeling accident. I still have physical and mental problems. I am not in the right mind yet to do any rappelling--but I have gone out several times and done mountaineering trips which suits me fine right now. Why rant on people? I just don't get it. Aren't these called accidents? Climbing is dangerous--now matter how skilled you are. Alex Lowe died in an avalanche. Should he have known better than being in that area on Shishapangma? He rolled the dice and came up unlucky. Scott Fischer died probably from the onset of some altitude sickness. Should he have turned around at the "turn around time?" He rolled the dice and came up unlucky. We can all make mistakes. Sometimes we roll the dice and we come up lucky, and unfortunately sometimes the dice will show snakeeyes or boxcars. I bet, even Greg W has rolled the dice. Quote
rbw1966 Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 I don't think lumping objective hazards and subjective hazards together is helpful. Anna's mistake was one of judgment that was affected by factors completely under her control while Alex Lowe's was not, aside from being there in the first place. Its good to reflect on those close calls to learn from them as much as possible. To just flippantly say "shit happens" or be fatalistic about it misses a significant learning opportunity. I hope Anna gets back on that horse and rides. A controlled, supportive environment and gradually building your confidence level might be the ticket. You may find that your head is more in the game now then before the accident. Quote
Winter Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 Stefan said: Why rant on people? I just don't get it. Aren't these called accidents? I'm not ranting on her but just trying to provide some support. I'll even give her a belay to get her back out there. My only point was that she shouldn't blame herself and use Goran's death as a reason to avoid the rock. BTW, I completely agree with RBW. Fisher's death, in particular, was preventable and should be analyzed and discussed to learn from the mistakes. Debriefing serves a valuable purpose. Quote
Dru Posted June 10, 2003 Posted June 10, 2003 i am setting up someone else's pagetop with this post Quote
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