Scramble the fighters!

[mattp]

But Veggie-

What are the prospects for a favorable outcome vs an unfavorable one if we invade? And how would the situation get worse if we waited for another several months or even a year? Do you think Norman Schwarzkopf has a point or not?

Edited February 5, 2003 by mattp

[MysticNacho]

uh- don't ask me, I don't care...

[Toast]

Matt's posted a verys sensible querry. And for all those rooting for us to march in and kick some ass, think about the price tag. By marching in we'll alienate the very stakeholders we'll need to help foot the bill. I'm not talking about bombs. I'm talking about the ten year process we're going to be stuck with feeding, clothing, and ensuring stability by active presence. Tom Friedman talks about this in his foreign affirs conlumn in the Times today. He's actually an advocate and see's this as an opportunity on the level of post war Germany and Japan to putting in place some stability. I think it's gonna be one major pain in the ass.

[Cpt.Caveman]

whatever ray zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

Check out moron here

[freeclimb9]

BTW, stupid commie "North Korea Vows to Counter Any U.S. Military Buildup". This means arms race. As if the DPRK could even get out of the starting blocks let alone win.

[Toast]

BTW, stupid commie "North Korea Vows to Counter Any U.S. Military Buildup". This means arms race. As if the DPRK could even get out of the starting blocks let alone win.

 

Read this, then tell me you feel the same way.

[Dru]

mmmm scrambled fighters on toast, sounds like breakfast!

[j_b]

Powell's Dubious Case for War

 

By Phyllis Bennis, Foreign Policy in Focus

February 5, 2003

 

U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell's presentation to the UN Security Council today wasn't likely to win over anyone not already on his side. He ignored the crucial fact that in the past several days (in Sunday's New York Times and in his Feb. 4 briefing of UN journalists) Hans Blix denied key components of Powell's claims.

 

 

Blix, who directs the UN inspection team in Iraq, said the UNMOVIC inspectors have seen "no evidence" of mobile biological weapons labs, have "no persuasive indications" of Iraq-al Qaeda links, and no evidence of Iraq hiding and moving material used for Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) either outside or inside Iraq. Dr. Blix also said there was no evidence of Iraq sending scientists out of the country, of Iraqi intelligence agents posing as scientists, of UNMOVIC conversations being monitored, or of UNMOVIC being penetrated.

 

 

Further, CIA and FBI officials still believe the Bush administration is "exaggerating" information to make their political case for war. Regarding the alleged Iraqi link with al Qaeda, U.S. intelligence officials told the New York Times, "We just don't think it's there."

 

for the rest of the article:

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15108

[gregm]

i can't help but feel that the details of iraq's arms program are completely irrelevant. saddam would obviously like to build weapons of mass destruction and is totally untrustworthy, i don't think anybody's questioning that. the anti-war sentiments are based on questions about what would likely be accomplished by invading. arguing details of the weapons inspection almost seems like a diversion from the real issue.

[j_b]

I agree with you Gregm yet I find it worthwhile to point out the discrepancies. I guess it begs the question, is Powell really this poorly informed? or is it something else?

[freeclimb9]

BTW, stupid commie "North Korea Vows to Counter Any U.S. Military Buildup". This means arms race. As if the DPRK could even get out of the starting blocks let alone win.

 

Read this, then tell me you feel the same way.

If "Counter Any U.S. Military Buildup" doesn't equate to arms race, what do you think North Korea is referring to?

[allthumbs]

yeah right, Powell, wtf does that idiot know? i think pnw climbers should run the country...they have all the answers.

[glacierdog]

Well, gents, I'm gonna be gone for a while. I might get the chance to visit the site a time or two when I get where I'm going. Till then...

[glacierdog]

i can't help but feel that the details of iraq's arms program are completely irrelevant. saddam would obviously like to build weapons of mass destruction and is totally untrustworthy, i don't think anybody's questioning that. the anti-war sentiments are based on questions about what would likely be accomplished by invading. arguing details of the weapons inspection almost seems like a diversion from the real issue.

 

Hell ya. The past ten years have revealed lie after lie. How many "complete and total disclosure document" amendments did Iraq give to the UN? I don't know the exact number, but it was more than 2. Ridiculous that it was allowed to go on this long. Wish me luck, people.

[allthumbs]

good luck glacierdog. kick ass.

[j_b]

yeah right, Powell, wtf does that idiot know? i think pnw climbers should run the country...they have all the answers.

 

I think we were talking about what Blix said, not anyone from the pnw.

[freeclimb9]

Wish me luck, people.

Good luck, dude. Looks like getting familiar with your gas mask is a good idea.

 

[Luna]

I don't think Powell is misinformed. He just has his marching orders. I don't think anyone disputes the idea that Iraq is run by a ruthless ruler, but why we're so hell bent on going in. Remember the testimony of the girl from Kuwiat saying the Iraqis were tossing babies out of incubators. It was theater, all made up to get Congress and the public stirred up. She was the child of a Kuwiati ambassador. So what is true? Whatever the admistration says is true. And the gullible swallow it whole.

[erik]

I don't think Powell is misinformed. He just has his marching orders. I don't think anyone disputes the idea that Iraq is run by a ruthless ruler, but why we're so hell bent on going in. Remember the testimony of the girl from Kuwiat saying the Iraqis were tossing babies out of incubators. It was theater, all made up to get Congress and the public stirred up. She was the child of a Kuwiati ambassador. So what is true? Whatever the admistration says is true. And the gullible swallow it whole.

 

site your source please!

 

thanks!

[Fairweather]

Just my wandering mind...and the longest post I've ever made...

 

USA invades Iraq. Military and political targets are hit from the air with minimal civilian casualties. Our army, along with the British, advance rapidly and meet only light resistance. Saddam orders gas attacks on advancing American forces. These orders are not followed. Rebellious Iraqi officers are shot by the hundreds by Saddam loyalists.

 

North Korea takes advantage of our Iraq distraction, intensifies its nuclear blackmail. Positions heavy weapons in the DMZ. Says "fuck you" to USA and UN. Tests resume of long range missiles fired over Japan's air space.

 

American forces cross the Iraqi desert unapposed. Close in on Bagdhad. A smaller force decends from the north.

 

China threatens invasion (for which they have been practicing for decades) of Taiwan. Positions landing craft across the Taiwan Straits.

 

North Korea performs an above-groud nuclear test.

 

USA stations multiple carrier groups off the coast of N Korea. Sails a battle group through the Taiwan Straits. Deploys an additional 30,000 troops in South Korea.

 

Baghdad falls as Iraqi officers refuse to follow orders to fight on.

Iraqi civilians dance in the streets. No one is able to locate Saddam. (He is later found dead in a Tripoli brothel)

 

American Navy ship and Chineese ship collide in Taiwan Straits. Tensions mount.

 

American warplanes hit and destroy Yongbang reactor complex in North Korea, but it is belived that several bombs have already been assembled and hidden.

 

North Korea masses their army along the DMZ. China promises only moral support for their communist friends.

 

China and North Korea launch simultaneous attacks. China on Taiwan, and North Korea on the South.

 

Within days, North Korean army is on the outskirts of Seoul. American air power is somewhat effective, and over 100,000 North Korean troops are dead, but their advance continues slowly. American airpower is hindered by harassment from N Korean airforce. An unknown number of American and South Korean troops are dead.

 

The United States Navy, under orders from home, stands down while the Chineese navy lands thousands of troops on the shores of Taiwan. Taiwanese resistance in weak and hindered by mainland spies/traitors within the ranks of the officer corps.

 

USA says it will use battlefield nuclear weapons to save Seoul, if necessary. This will not likely be necessary as the North Korean army's advance is slowing dramatically. Food and fuel are becoming real issues for the North's army and the combined forces of USA/ So Korea are dishing out unbearable punishment on the enemy, although the shelling of Seoul continues, and thousands of South Korean civilians are dead.

 

Intelligence reports arrive in Washington DC that the North is preparing to use some, or all of their nuclear weapons.

 

Within hours of this news, several underground command and control centers in North Korea are hit from the air with devastating effect. It is suspected, but not confirmed, that at least some of these strikes were carried out with American "bunker-buster" nuclear weapons. North Korean command falls silent. NK's army begins to lay down their weapons.

 

South Korean troops pour into the North to restore order and arrest North Korean leaders. China threatens force, but remains on the sidelines.

 

Iraq is liberated. Taiwan is "liberated". Korea is "united".

 

 

 

 

.......I think this whole scenario could be averted with a good old fashioned assasination. Just kill Saddam and Udai.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JayB]

. Remember the testimony of the girl from Kuwiat saying the Iraqis were tossing babies out of incubators. It was theater, all made up to get Congress and the public stirred up. She was the child of a Kuwiati ambassador. So what is true? Whatever the admistration says is true. And the gullible swallow it whole.

 

Are you seriously suggesting that such a tale, if true, proves that all of such testimony given by Kuwaitis prior to the US invasion was a wholesale fraud orchestrated by the US in an effort to manufacture a rationale sufficent to justify an attack? Nothing happened to Kuwaiti civilians while they were occupied by Iraqi forces? Those Kuwaitis who imagined that they were suffering at the hands of the Iraqi troops sure were a gullible bunch, alright.

[slothrop]

I wasn't really convinced by what I read and saw of Powell's presentation. If this was supposed to be the show that impressed UN security council members enough to cause them to join the US' side, it was underwhelming. I'm not an intelligence analyst, but you'd need a lot of faith to believe that what those pictures show is what the US says they show.

 

Iraq's obviously a fucked-up place that could stand to be ruled differently. But it's so ineffectual compared to North Korea, which actually seems like a threat, what with China as an ally, and considering the vulnerability of Japan (financially and militarily) as noted in articles referenced previously.

 

So. Why not send a few hundred more UN inspectors running around Iraq for a few more months? It's just a matter of time before Iraq really fucks up and we discover a chemical missile, or an Iraqi soldier shoots at a UN van arriving 15 minutes too early to the inspection site.

 

Give the arms inspectors more time so we can concentrate on North Korea.

 

I think George W knows Iraq is an easy target, so why not wipe it out? It's not really a brave stance to talk about invading Iraq, but dealing with N. Korea takes some balls.

[freeclimb9]

You fucks who advocate more inspections haven't read 1441. Violations of reporting as outlined in paragraph 4 leads to paragraphs 11 and 12 which lead to paragraph 13 (which deals with the serious consequences. Tripling the number of inspectors --as the French representative suggested-- doesn't seem to fucking serious). Resolution 1441 was written under the authority of Chapter VII of the UN Charter, so Article 42 can be invoked.

Powell didn't have to make a case for war. That was made during the framing of resolution 1441. He just made the case proving Iraqi violations of paragraph 4.

 

[North_by_Northwest]

Slothrop: I think Iraq is more of a threat to us than N. Korea. Iraq doesn't have any real allies, it's had it's ass kicked by us in the past and it has strong fundamentalist/terrorist connections. I'd say they're much more likely to do harm to U.S. soil by sneakily delivering some sort of "bad bomb" as an act of terrorism. They're crazy, wounded and scared. At this point we I think we should finish them off humanely and cleanly before they do something real bad.

 

N. Korea is definitely a more formidable enemy, but less crazy and dangerous I would think. They might try and take a little territory but I doubt they'd face us. Their ties with China should keep them from doing anything too rash in regards to the U.S. They are also more likely to deliver a "bad bomb" through conventional military means anyway, in which case we'd have a better chance of blocking their attack.

 

I'm with Will on colonialist Israel getting their asses back to their own territory too. It doesn't matter who's at fault in that stupid situation: the Israelis have the power to end it and foster peace and they aren't.

 

Cheese! Are they still making CHEESE???? Isn't that contrary to international agreement? Obviously, this can not and will not be tolerated in a post 7-11 world!!!!

 

 

[Billygoat]

Exactly Slothrop. What are we, two or three days down wind from Korea?! What really takes balls is repairing our economy thru corporate reform and taking on the thieves undermining our "way of life". So we invade Iraq, kick ass, take over, secure some cheap oil, stock market goes up a blip, but we still have terrorism and insecurity. When are we going to go after the Saudis who have way more to do with 9/11 than the Iraqis !?! I am not the least bit worried about Iraq. I'm worried about China. They have weapons of mass destruction and the means to deliver coupled with the needs of a growing economic powerhouse.