fenderfour

Politicians have been lying as long as they have been politicking. Conservative and liberal, they are all guilty. We are just living these lies right now so they are fresh in your head. It's like the listed weights on technical clothing.

So this is the yardstick we should be using to measure our actions aganinst our captives? I would like to think we don't need to stoop to these atrocities, or come close. It's not a measurement. I have read a lot of posts on this board complainig about what has happened to the Iraqis, but only about half as many complaining about what has happened to the Westerners. Why do you think that is? Do you not care?

"kids bounce" I was crying once after falling off of my bike. My dad said to me: "If you scream like that again, you better be bleeding to death, or there better be a bone hanging out of your arm, because if there isn't, there will be!" Thanks dad.

Legalistic yes, red herring no. Personally I don't believe that the mistreatment of prisoners is worth the diplomatic damage that it has done to the US. But then again, I don't know what information (if any) has been gotten from the prisoners. It's very likely that none of the intelligence from this incident will ever be made public. Give it five years. Noone will remember what happened at Abu Ghraib.

If you resurrect old threads to

I could be wrong, but I think that "ridiculous" is what tomtom was going for. I don't really think he intended to exchange it, just to make the manufacturer aware that people were paying attention. switch to decaf?

So none of you think that it's funny to call them on their known bullshit?

I'm not defending the actions at Abu Ghraib. I just wanted to set the record straight about what the GC said, instead of going along with all of this speculation and "doesn't the GC say something about..." statements. I also wanted to point out that people in the West like to bitch about what the US is doing while turning a blind eye to the atrocities that are committed againt the Coalition forces. Tell me Jim, which would you rather do, have your faced pressed against another man's crotch or to be decapitated on video? Maybe you would prefer Jessica Lynch's fate of repeated rape and a severe beating? But thanks for pointing out Bush's comments. Personally, I'm appalled at the fact that any politician would lie.

1. I'm with Fat Teddy on this one. 2. Their "faction" is guilty, therefore they are guilty. It's impossible in a real war to determine who exactly is doing what, to whom, and when until a thorough investigation has been undertaken. In this conflict, there is no clear chain of command, so it makes it more difficult. Since the insurgents choose not to wear uniforms or to publicly delineate themselves from one another as organized groups, they are assumed to be one group fighting against the evil western empire.

I just looked at that guys website. He isn't right and for so many reasons...

They don't have protection for one reason: They don't abide by the convention. The are provisions for everyone that fights in a declared war, even for non-uniformed, almost-organized resistance fighters from a foreign country.

Sorry if this is repost. The first one didn't seem to stick. I keep hearing this or that about the geneva connventions, so I did a little research. By a little research, I mean reading the Geneva conventions. First of all, I was wondering if the "abuse" was really against the Geneva conventions. It all seemed like college fraternity hazing to me. Don't get me wrong. I don't want to be piled up naked with 20 of my closest combatant friends, but I probably not going to be scarred for life. "No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted, or exposed to any unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind. " The GC specifically states that acts of humiliation or personal or religious debasement are against the law. Ok, now that's out of the way, I wanted to know who was covered by the GC. Since the most of the people in the prisons are Not official Iraqi military, I wasn't so sure that they are covered. As it turns out, almost anyone fighting in a declared war is covered. That is, everyone who abides by the GC. "Article 4 A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy: 1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces. 2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions: (a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates; (b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; © That of carrying arms openly; (d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war." Interesting... So only fighters who observe the GC is covered by the GC... Are the insurgents following the GC? After multiple attacks on civilians and the killing of coalition POW's and more specifically the Nick Berg situation, I didn't think that they were. More specifically: "Article 3 1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria. To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons: (a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;" Legally speaking, the US does not have to follow the Geneva Conventions, and it has little to do with a proclamation from the White House. It's all in the GC. So this whole thing becomes an argument regarding the moral high ground. The US shouldn't lower themselves to their level. Why doesn't the western press hoot and holler about the treatment of the Coalition prisoners by the insurgents? We have reports of torture and murder from when Jessica Lynch was recovered. We have had servicemen drug through the streets and publicly mutilated. Is it because the Iraqis, and as an extension, the insurgents are free from any wrongdoing just because the US and the West were the aggressors? I have also heard a lot of arguments regarding the treatment of the prisoners and the cultural affect it has on them. Sure, this kind of treatment happens in the US and it can be considered a cruel joke, but in a Middle Eastern country, it is absolutely dehumanizing. If we can't truly understand their standpoint, what makes us think that they understand our laws? Maybe we should use their laws instead. If we started observing the laws of Sharia, life (or the lack thereof) would get a lot more interesting for those prisoners and for the insurgents as a whole. Just my $0.02. Link to the Geneva Conventions

The bros.

For toproping almost any rope from a reputable manufacturer will do. The Bluewater ropes are high quality. Don't worry about the dry coating unless you plan on TR'ing in the rain. For a rope bag - I don't use them, but you will probably want one of the tarp type. No need to coil the rope, just flake it on the tarp and roll up.

You Canadians are so hardcore. None of that wussy business of lugging a tent around.

I have found that lunges help immensely with the approach. I've tried a few different things to help my climbing, but it's finger strength that always fails me. I guess my considerable bulk is just too much for those smaller forearm muscles.

Does anybody know this character?

Yowza!!!!

I might be able to get you a date:

sure, steal my thunder you bastards... Ugly like you?

FYI - CC.com does have a private message function. Check it out.

Israeli troops do the D-9 tango for a living every day.

Riding a motorcycle helps. I was pulled over for doing 85 in a 30 on my bike. the two cops that pulled me over rode as well. They warned me and we BS'ed about bikes for about 30 minutes. A few months later I was pulled over for doing 40 in the same spot in my Subaru. It was the same cop. Another ticket avoided. Good luck talking your way out of anything these days. With all of the budget problems the cops are being asked to write more tickets as a form of revenue generation.

To hell with a colostomy bag. I'd want a colostomy hose. Cut me off in the ATM line will you????

You gotta admit, foraker has a good point. Political opinions are like assholes...