passing ethics

[keenwesh]

I climbed the RNWF yesterday in 21 hours car to car, 6 of which were spent sitting around waiting for a incredibly slow team who wouldn't let anyone pass (until the guy who was doing all the leading couldn't figure out how to do the penji on the second to last pitch in the dark and let me zip by and fix their rope for them) We topped out 15 minutes after passing them (one short bolt ladder pitch with a couple aid placements and then a 5.7 traverse to the top) getting back to the base of the NW face took an hour and we could see headlamps and hear the girl screaming "up rope" almost non stop (which she'd been doing all fucking day long) So anyway, if you start climbing at 4 am (we could see their headlamps before we even started hiking up the death slabs) and have a queue of 3 parties behind you not even halfway up a climb how do you get told to move the fuck out of the way?

 

I PDL the entire zig zags and ended up standing in the alcove for half an hour waiting for her to jug far enough up so that I could climb right behind her. Un fucking real.

 

 

IN CASE ANYONE WAS WONDERING, RNWF ISN'T THE BEST GIRLFRIEND ROUTE

[genepires]

besides letting people pass is a good excuse for coming down via hedlamps. you can blame it on "niceness".

 

 

[DPS]

Out of curiosity, what does RNWF refer to? Regular NW Face of Half Dome? Also, PDL?

[kevbone]

what does RNWF refer to?

 

Please advise.

[keenwesh]

Regular northwest face of half dome

 

I've been in the big ditch for a month and a half straight so I refer to everything in acronyms. I forget that not everyone is imprisoned in this insane asylum.

 

PDL-Pakistani Death Loop

lead a pitch, pull up 60 or so feet of rope, clove it into the anchor, yell down that the rope is fixed, and start leading off again with the giant loop of slack. On really easy aid (the smallest piece that I place in the 2nd zig zag pitch is a bomber purple c4) yer just not going to take a fall. Once my partner finishes jugging the first pitch he throws me on belay and I continue to lead up to thank god ledge.

Edited June 17, 2013 by keenwesh

[ajpederson]

I think my position on passing can best be described in a couple short stories:

 

1. Let a "guide" and a couple pass us on Monkey Face at the bottom of the bolt ladder because there was going to be a proposal on top. Ended up taking hours to finish while we shivered in the monkey's mouth and had to rappel in the dark. Right: asked us to pass. Wrong: make sure you're faster than the people you're passing.

 

2. Guy traversed in above us on an alternate start to a route even though we said he was going to make a mess and we were already on route, then his two followers who were just starting climbing outside clustered the route for us and the group waiting behind us. Right: seemed friendly enough at the belays. Wrong: Didn't wait in line, didn't pass in a good spot.

 

I really think the responsibility for passing falls on the group that wants to pass. Find a good spot to do it, have a plan, do it quickly, make sure you're faster, and be friendly about it. I generally go with the "guess I should have gotten up earlier" attitude and only try to pass when it won't inconvenience the lead group.

[ScaredSilly]

To be honest unless you do a variation passing a noncooperative team can be difficult. How I have done it in the past is not double up on the belays but belay some where in between. That is have the leader pass the belayer of the slow party and go as far as they can. At that point bring up their second and hope they can climb and past the belayer of the slow party before they start climbing past you.

 

That said a slow party should have some manners to allow others to pass - however, sounds like the party was pushing to be off the route by dark and figured every minute counted thus no passing.

[ivan]

if you go to disney-world, you can't sweat it when a kid pukes on you in space mountain

[keenwesh]

agreed on the passing by building a intermediate belay and then climbing/simuling through them. That's what Mark and I resorted to on Snake dike a few weeks back when we climbed it by moonlight. a team of three started in front of us and then spent 45 minutes leading the 2nd pitch. I just told mark to start simuling, and we zipped right past them. A soloist was insistent that he would be really fast so we waited and let him go ahead on the second simul pitch (mark and I switched leading somewhere around maybe the top of the 4th pitch, and I ran to the top) Anyway, the soloist was pretty damn slow and I was riding his ass the entire time, it wasn't that big of a deal though because he was a cool guy and provided good conversation.

[keenwesh]

I'm jumping up on a super obscure right side route later this week that is guaranteed to have no one on it. I'm roping up with pitons pete though, so we'll probably only manage a pitch or two before I have to go back to work.

 

The crowds here are something else though, I'm used to cragging in MT, where a busy day is 2 other parties on the entire wall.

[glassgowkiss]

Last Saturday there was an accident on Angels's Crest on p7- resulting a broken ankle. They also refused the party after them to continue climbing to the top, and held them up on the ledge (top of p6) for over 3 hours for no real good reason. I know that people in pain don't have the best judgement, but they clearly created a total cluster fuck. For one additional people under a flying chopper is not a good idea, second- they forced people to rap into North Gully with a single rope. Kudos to Squamish SAR, speedy recovery to the injured. Just one request- next time don't bring your assclown shoes.

[G-spotter]

I'm roping up with pitons pete though,

Guard your buttocks, dude's a pedo

[keenwesh]

I've got my own ledge, so my buttocks will remain unmolested.

 

GGK-I don't understand your post, were you shit hammered when you wrote that?

[glassgowkiss]

I've got my own ledge, so my buttocks will remain unmolested.

 

GGK-I don't understand your post, were you shit hammered when you wrote that?

sure, what do you expect from a polak?

[bstach]

Last Saturday there was an accident on Angels's Crest on p7- resulting a broken ankle. It's beyond me why they refused to the following them party to continue? Since the injured party decided not to self rescue and call for help, why did they force a nasty retreat from top of p6, since they held them for over 3 hours on that ledge. I understand accidents can happen, but this just proves these guys wear ass-clown shoes every day.

 

 

There is a discussion on SquamishClimbing.com on this topic

 

For the record, I was one of the rescuers long lined in to help the injured climber.

 

He was one of about six climbers at the belay ledge and was located at the base of the pitch he fell off of. His injury was ghastly to behold, potentially limb threatening and moving him any more than necessary, a challenge we preferred to avoid.

 

I asked the other climbers if they would mind moving back to an area as protected as possible from the slinging operation and advised them we'd be as much as 45 minutes before we had the injured climber and his partner evacuated. They were very accommodating and seemed to appreciate that dealing with the injured climber was the priority.

 

I'm not aware of what sort of dialogue occurred before we arrived.

 

None of them asked us if they could keep climbing and in fact indicated, given the time of day (about 16:00) they planned to rap into the gully and call it a day.

Having people climb above the injured climber and rescue scene would have been awkward and given the circumstances, put everyone below at unnecessary and avoidable risk.

 

We would like to have gotten to the climber sooner and got him off quicker, but a lot goes into organizing the volunteers, the helicopter and planning and executing a potentially high risk operation.

I was one of approximately 10 Squamish SAR volunteers who responded to the injured climber's distress call and part of a team of about 45 members who train upwards of (and often more than) a 100 hours a year in the various disciplines to maintain the minimum skills to respond to Ground Search, Swiftwater, High Angle Rope, Helicopter, Mountain and Avalanche Rescue.

Many of us are (or were at one time) climbers and we try to provide the kind of help we'd hope for if we or someone dear to us was in trouble. It's never perfect, every rescue is a challenging "one of", we always take longer than we'd like and we do all we can to improve our response time.

 

We volunteer for the Province, are usually tasked by the RCMP and they have authority over the rescue response. In theory, if we have difficulty with bystanders impeding the rescue or posing a risk to our operation, we're to let the RCMP deal with such individuals.

I've never had to play that card and would think it most unfortunate to have to.

 

I appreciate the cooperation and patience of the both the injured climber and the other climbers at the scene as we had plenty on our plate effecting the rescue.

I hope the injured climber has a speedy and complete recovery from his injury.

 

The comments about delaying or barring the progress of other climbers during the rescue appear at best, ill informed and at worst, selfish.

 

Perry Beckham

Squamish SAR

 

[glassgowkiss]

for the record, I climbed on the same route with the party right behind injured climbers on Sunday. With all due respect- I doubt Perry was conducting interviews about what was said and done before SAR arrived. I talked to them about it for about 10 minutes, so the account given is fairly accurate. Climbers in question were quite young, but very competent. I also have done this route over 10 times, and do not believe that there was a logical reason not to climb past them. Also the second party did not have medical training or supplies to provide any meaningful help.

[tvashtarkatena]

It really frosts me when I can't put the little check marks on my day's tick list because of some volunteer idiots are trying to save some other idiot from limb amputation, and taking their own sweet time doing it. When we tried to climb through the rescue, as, of course, anyone real climbers would, SAR gave us the usual "hey, we're kinda busy here" blow off. You know, some of us came here to CLIMB, not to FALL. That's 45 minutes of my life I'll never get back. SO RUDE. I even had to rap on ONE ROPE (!!!???). The NERVE of those assclownz!

Edited June 18, 2013 by tvashtarkatena

[denalidave]

Several other methods for "passing"... I like the blame the neighbor, name it and claim it or pull my finger approach.

[Drederek]

Well Angels Crest must be a magnet for these kinds of things, last time my buddy and I climbed it we were held up for about an hour at the the p2 belay while a party of three self rescued themselves, there was no real way to get past right there and they were making slow but steady progress. Higher up and later in the day (after the acrophobe) we came upon another slow group. Waited another 30 minutes and I led out right behind the second and just kept going past their belay after asking if they minded if we passed. Any reply other than a very hostile/life threatening response and I would have continued but no need, they were very nice about it. I think they knew they would be finishing in the dark either way and we were able finish and get down to the campground by dark.

[BootsandPants]

It's a two way street; slow parties should realize their situation and let a fast party pass (generally), but the fast party should also respect the wishes of the party ahead and not try to jump the line without cooperation from the slow party. Yeah, it sucks when one of the groups isn't cooperating, but as the lower party on route, deal with it. If a slow party isn't letting you pass, and there is no other alternative to get around them, either wait or bail and come back another day. Snaking the line and/or fucking up their climbing by intermediate belay stations etc. is even worse in ethics than not letting a faster party pass. If you do pass, be damn well sure you're faster. Few things would piss me off more than letting a group pass just to be waiting behind them at the next belay.

 

I've been on both ends of the scenario. I've wanted to pass slow teams who wouldn't let me, so I just waited. I was frustrated, but other than me being a little pissed, no safety concerns. They got up earlier than me, so I dealt with it. I've also had a guy pass me, even though I asked him not to (there was a line for the route...wait your fucking turn) and he proceeded to cluster up my line, tangle their rope in mine, and his two followers were fucking with my gear. The rope tangles and idiotic followers (and leader for that matter) were a safety concern. Probably the extreme example, but even if it wasn't clustered, I'd have found it rude. Wake up earlier or come back later.

 

Bottom line; party in front has the right of way. If they don't want to let you climb through, and you can't get around them on another line, wait or bail.

[glassgowkiss]

It really frosts me when I can't put the little check marks on my day's tick list because of some volunteer idiots are trying to save some other idiot from limb amputation, and taking their own sweet time doing it. When we tried to climb through the rescue, as, of course, anyone real climbers would, SAR gave us the usual "hey, we're kinda busy here" blow off. You know, some of us came here to CLIMB, not to FALL. That's 45 minutes of my life I'll never get back. SO RUDE. I even had to rap on ONE ROPE (!!!???). The NERVE of those assclownz!

You are just a genuine idiot. Have you even done this route? Feeling better after spewing a bunch of meaningless bullshit on your soapbox?

[ivan]

do you need to have seen a massive car-accident to know that you probably ought not try to drive through it while the cops n' medics n' firefighters are combing through the wreckage n' trying to pull folks out?

[tvashtarkatena]

Reckon I'm of a mind to give SAR operations a wide berth is all. Rescuers are maxed out just doing what they're doing safely without having to negotiate how to accommodate a healthy party's petty ambitions for the day. If an SAR guy says he needs some space, this gen-u-ine idiot is inclined to take him at his word and let that team focus on what is always a tough job. Not that your tick list isn't the most important thing in the universe, mind you. Undoubtedly worth someone else losing a leg for.

Edited June 18, 2013 by tvashtarkatena

[glassgowkiss]

Reckon I'm of a mind to give SAR operations a wide berth is all. Rescuers are maxed out just doing what they're doing safely without having to negotiate how to accommodate a healthy party's petty ambitions for the day. If an SAR guy says he needs some space, this gen-u-ine idiot is inclined to take him at his word. Not that your tick list isn't the most important thing in the universe, mind you. Undoubtedly worth someone else losing a leg for.

 

Which part of no SAR on the ledge for 3 hours you have hard time comprehending? There was no need to move anyone to just get by them. Having fewer people on the ledge, while conducting rescue, would have been safer for everyone. But you just keep posting your self-righteous bullshit.

[tvashtarkatena]

You'll live.