New Poor Judgement Bolt on City Park

[Doug T]

Went to Index today, expecting to do a quick warm up on Godzilla then play on something else. We get to the anchor and see a brand new, entirely pointless and unnecessary 3/8" bolt on the second pitch of City Park.

 

There has for many years been a relic 1/4" bolt on that line which, as a reminder of the past and what pioneer climbers used as pro, served a good purpose. I've been climbing at Index for 17 years and NEVER considered the original bolt anything more than a psycological piece and waste of a quickdraw. It has never been an issue because even as a relatively new climber back then, I was able to put in adequate protection with nuts.

 

So to make the point that the new bolt is litter, I led the second pitch of City Park today with just the set of nuts on my harness. After placing 2 bomber nut placements, I had to ask my partners for more draws so I could keep placing bomber nut placements. I placed 1 more before making the move to the ledge, where I placed another. One of my buddies who is taller was able to place an additional nut before making the move to the ledge. You can see the bolt in the pic between the first and second piece.

 

 

Each of the lower 3 nuts in the picture will take a leader fall. The fourth one will also but the climber must be pretty tall. The fifth can be placed by any climber whose hands reach the little shelf. In addition, I didn't have enough nuts to even try using the crack LEFT of the bolt, but on visual inspection, I could have placed 3 more. There are 6 good nut placements available to an average height climber, 7 for a tall climber, and an 8th utterly bomb-proof nut, all before moving onto the ledge.

 

I'm not interested in a bolting war. I won't remove the bolt myself. I'll just point out the obvious.

 

There are MULTIPLE good natural placements that don't require anything beyond that carried on a normal rack. The bolt that was there was pointless to even new climbers at the grade and was backed up. The climb is a crack climb and needs NO bolts. The fact that the old, fully rusted bolt still was in place is evidence that it wasn't taking falls through the crux moves of the route. Natural pro was doing its' job.

 

The bolt placed should be removed by the person who placed it. You have taken away from the experience for anyone who tries to climb this line, expecting an easily naturally protected route. If you're that itching to replace bolts, I can suggest a list of bolts and anchors that need replacing due to galvanic corrosion or just plain age.

 

 

Doug Taylor

[counterfeitfake]

The old bolt was removed, and a new one put in it's place?

 

Did you actually fall on your nut placements, or did you just feel like they were bomber?

 

 

I haven't been climbing at Index for 17 years, but everybody I've ever talked to about that bolt was in favor of replacing it, and nuts in that crack never seemed very confidence-inspiring to ME, when facing a potential ledge fall and broken ankle.

Edited August 4, 2011 by counterfeitfake

[boadman]

Both of the cracks are pretty thin and slightly flared. I generally place a nut or two there that I think are decent, but the bolt doesn't seem out of place at index considering the local ethic.

[keenwesh]

I talked to the guy who did this and according to him he had asked around before retrobolting to find out the local consensus. according to him he got the go ahead from everyone he talked to, I had no reason to doubt him... along with his partner they were some of the nicest people I talked to over the two days I was there. gave me a topo and told me where to go to avoid the sun. thanks guys! K cliff was a blast, also that bolt did need replacing. If you don't like it don't clip it.

[AlpineK]

I've placed stoppers in the crack before. They seemed more like aiding placements then actual pro. Perhaps the latest high-tec stoppers are different

 

If all they did was replace the old bolt with a new one it doesn't seem like a big deal.

 

[counterfeitfake]

The conversation on RCNW.net sure makes it sound like people were in favor of a good bolt there. The guy who did it said that he tried to remove the old bolt but it snapped off very easily, so the new bolt is a couple inches higher.

[layton]

this has nothing to do with most of this but out here in utah there's a lot of old dangerous "historical" bolts. When they were place, the bolts weren't historical. they were new.

[kevbone]

I talked to the guy who did this and according to him he had asked around before retrobolting

 

retrobolting or "re-bolting"?

[RuMR]

Good point Kevin...

[Doug T]

Yes I have fallen on the 3rd nut placement. The crack constricts for a proper nut placement. I haven't fallen on the lower 2 because they all go in at the same time, but both set well and required significant effort to remove. That's just using one of the 2 (TWO) cracks.

 

After I climbed it, we pulled the rope and my partner lead it, using my gear and inspecting it from below and above, finding another good placement and agreeing in the absurdity of the new bolt.

 

If the argument for the bolt is that it's too hard to place gear in the 2 cracks to adequately protect the climb, that's wrong.

 

It's not hard to place gear there. Justify however you want. Having led the climb dozens of times over the years, I know that the experience has been dulled for anyone climbing after that bolt was placed.

 

If making the climb even safer than it is was the goal, while still defacing the rock, you could have simply tapped a pin in and out of the crack a few times and created an even better nest for the nuts. At least that would last until the rock eroded away and not the 1 human lifetime of a good bolt.

 

Climbing protection has improved since that first bolt was planted. The old bolt was irrelevant for a long time. Now there's a shiny new irrelevant bolt.

 

At least the bolter asked around. Sadly he/she didn't ask me so I could demonstrate the multiple good placements and try to deter the action.

 

Bolts have their place at Index, but this one was a poor judgement placement.

[kevbone]

I know that the experience has been dulled for anyone climbing after that bolt was placed.

 

Shouldn't I be the judge of that.

[AlpineK]

Dulled experience?

 

Then: That bolt off the start looks a little sketchy

Now: Look somebody got rid of the old bolt and put in a new one

 

I'm not sure I follow how this dulls the experience.

 

If somebody yanked the bolt then everybody would have to stare at an old bolt scar. Now that sounds dull.

[counterfeitfake]

You're actually advocating intentional pin scarring over a bolt? That is pretty radical. You're sounding more like a zealot- you may have strong feelings about this but you don't speak for everyone.

 

Climbing protection has improved since that first bolt was planted.

Are you sure about that? Do you know when that bolt was put in?

 

I am POSITIVE that the climber who replaced that bolt understands there are potential nut placements. Most I have talked to believe those placements are dodgy. I won't contest that they might hold a fall but I wouldn't call them bomber either. By my memory it seemed like an outward tug might blow the placements.

 

On issues like this, consensus is what is important, and the voices of those who are active in maintaining the area should carry more weight. Maybe you're one of them, I don't know. But I do know where you can reach a bunch of others, if you want to talk to them about this.

[Rad]

If making the climb even safer than it is was the goal, while still defacing the rock, you could have simply tapped a pin in and out of the crack a few times and created an even better nest for the nuts. At least that would last until the rock eroded away and not the 1 human lifetime of a good bolt.

 

While you're at it with the pitons, can you make the crack big enough to fit my fingers? Then it would be safer because I won't fall. Yosemite here we come!

[RuMR]

Listen all...DougT's brass balls are more than sufficient to protect those couple of moves...

 

[skykilo]

I might head to Index on my way through Washington next week. I'll probably have a set of Wallnuts, a set of offsets and some RPs. And if I climb Godzilla to Sloe Children, I'll clip that bolt.

Edited August 5, 2011 by skykilo

[chris54]

Doug it sounds like the tribe has spoken and no one gives a shit.

[DougT]

You're right Chris54. Tribe has spoken and they don't care. On the other hand, the person who put the bolt in clearly gives enough to put time and effort in.

 

So I'll put up or shut up. I will gladly go up the line with the person who placed the bolt in a 100% friendly and open minded way. I will show the available gear. If afterwards, he is still convinced that a bolt is the only adequate protection, so be it. If after climbing the line he is convinced by my position, I'll help remove the bolt and the evidence that it existed.

 

He can contact me through my website DougTaylorReptiles.com, pm my through this site or find me at Index with a T-Shirt on my head.

 

 

[el jefe]

DougT is showing early signs of Raindawg-Pope's disease. if untreated, this disease is can lead to tiresome perseveration and an uncontrollable desire to bombard climbing threads with pictures of carebears, crowbars, and images of yakov smirnof. usually this illness presents as an offer to have a "discussion" in a "100% friendly and open minded way" when in reality no such "discussion" is forthcoming, but rather a ceaseless harangue regarding how the real truth can be found in certain obscure and dated climbing articles from the 1973 chouniard catalogue, etc.

 

 

 

 

 

[DRep]

First off, I would like to thank you Doug for all the time you have put into making Index a safe great place to climb and hang out. For those who don't know him, he has really done alot more than you think. I may not agree with some of his stances on when to bolt or not, but I respect his opinion and him as a person.

 

I was under the impression that the bolt would be placed lower to protect the awkward mantle to get you off the Godzilla belay ledge. I would be in favor of having a bolt there but not where it currently resides. I do agree with Doug that the placements in the thin crack are good and will hold a fall. I have even fallen on them twice when I first tried the route years ago. I hope that the bolter will take Doug up on his offer.

 

 

[RuMR]

DougT is showing early signs of Raindawg-Pope's disease. if untreated, this disease is can lead to tiresome perseveration and an uncontrollable desire to bombard climbing threads with pictures of carebears, crowbars, and images of yakov smirnof. usually this illness presents as an offer to have a "discussion" in a "100% friendly and open minded way" when in reality no such "discussion" is forthcoming, but rather a ceaseless harangue regarding how the real truth can be found in certain obscure and dated climbing articles from the 1973 chouniard catalogue, etc.

 

 

 

 

[DRep]

DougT is showing early signs of Raindawg-Pope's disease. if untreated, this disease is can lead to tiresome perseveration and an uncontrollable desire to bombard climbing threads with pictures of carebears, crowbars, and images of yakov smirnof. usually this illness presents as an offer to have a "discussion" in a "100% friendly and open minded way" when in reality no such "discussion" is forthcoming, but rather a ceaseless harangue regarding how the real truth can be found in certain obscure and dated climbing articles from the 1973 chouniard catalogue, etc.

 

 

 

But Raindawg disease attacks people who stick their heads between their legs and sniff their own farts. I don't think Doug fits the criteria.

[rocketparrotlet]

If you clip the bolt then 5 nuts aren't necessary to protect 10 feet of crack. How much do you really trust the "bomber" nuts if you use up half your nut rack before the crux move?

[DRep]

If you clip the bolt then 5 nuts aren't necessary to protect 10 feet of crack. How much do you really trust the "bomber" nuts if you use up half your nut rack before the crux move?

 

You only need one nut in the thin section, but I guess you could use half your rack if you really want to though.

[flashclimber]

Be like me and skip the bolt. Just like the bolt I skip on the beginning of Tatoosh. Scary but do-able. I think this thread has ended. Cya tomorrow Doug!