markwebster Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Here is the problem: You are at the gym training and you take a couple whippers off a hard move. When you lower off your hands are so tired you can't untie the knot, which is rock hard. Sound familiar? Yosemite finish might help a little, but same problem. My solution: Sailors had the a similar problem in the 18th century, and they used something called a fid: fid I'm thinking this could be made from the curved end of a binier, that was cut off and filed to a taper on one end. The other end of the curve could be smashed flat until it could be drilled out to accept another binier through the hole for twisting leverage. The whole thing in the shape of a "c" about the size of an apricot. You'd tie your figure eight, and insert this curved fid into the knot, possibly need a safety cord to hold it on, like a belay plate wire. When you take that whipper, you lower off and pull out the fid, which would come out because it is tapered, hard, and you have leverage, none of which is true on a jammed knot with tired hands. This could also be made from a branch, in a y shape, or some kind of plastic rod, which would be easier to work and test. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Simpler solution: get stronger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 one could also use elven rope? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Easier answer. Overhand and a half a Grapevine as a tie in knot. Always easy to untie no matter how many falls you have taken and close to the same strength as a figure 8 if not better. Solid as a rock for reliability. Always wondered why more didn't use it. I got the idea from something Chouinard wrote long ago. BITD when I winging off darn near any piece of overhanging rock I could find it worked just fine I try not to wing on anything these dyas but still use the same knot. Always raises an eye brow on those that notice and have no clue what I am doing or why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lodestone Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Mark It seems as though the fid might poke/impale the climber given the right set of circumstances. Dane I'd like to see a picture of this knot. Chad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 On the Fid idea Mark, if I'm climbing with wood down there I don't want any knot jamming around it in a fall.... ...just sayin' is all.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layton Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 I always cut myself out of the knot and by the time my rope is too short, it's generally time to buy a new one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markwebster Posted February 2, 2011 Author Share Posted February 2, 2011 I've been ready to cut the darn knot a few times lately, takes 15 minutes to untie it. If the fid is just the bottom curve of a binier, I don't see how it could be dangerous. I've not tried this yet, just thinking about a solution to wasting time with a stuck knot. I am getting stronger, but this just means I get on harder climbs, and fall further, which makes the knot even tighter. Not a problem outside, but it's been raining for months, and there is no outside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Only takes moments to untie with a major pump...even after big FF falls. I'd like to see a picture of this knot. Loose Tight You need to pay attention to the first overhand and make sure it isn't directly taking the weight and cutting the harness in half. Play with it a bit and it is easy to see and feel the difference. More here on knot strength. http://www.caves.org/section/vertical/nh/50/knotrope.html Anecdotally, I have taken many many high FF falls on this knot. Knot was fine, loose on the harness tie in points and easy to untie. Me? Not always so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pink Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Simpler solution: get stronger. pink likes this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurthicks Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 I use the rewoven overhand knot, which requires no backup. quick and easy to tie. easy to untie after whipping on it. It also is a stronger knot than the fig-8 or bowline if using your tie in loop as a belay loop (say on a BD Bod that doesn't have a belay loop) as it capsizes less readily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 I use the rewoven overhand knot...It also is a stronger knot than the fig-8 or bowline Kurt a question if you don't mind? It would first appear that the RW overhand still cuts itself pretty quickly under high load but instead of one strand it would have to cut two to fail. Do you have any published test data showing the RW overhand as strong as or stronger than a Bowline or 8? Just tying it here at my desk, strength wise it looks to be a Overhand on a bite which is much weaker than a Figure 8 or a Bowline. Never seen any on the 1/2 Fisherman's with a Overhand either. Obvious trick there is to make sure it is the rope in the Fisherman's taking the load. My limited understanding of knot strength is the more surface area (rope) in the knot the closer it is to the original tensile strength of the rope. Same reason we use a Figure 8 instead of an Overhand. As I said "limited knowledge" so be gentle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurthicks Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 First off, there are a multitude of acceptable knots to use when tying into the end (or the middle) of the rope. Each should be chosen based on the characteristics you desire. In this case, it was Mark's desire to have a knot that is easier to untie when loaded. This leads me three commonly tied knots that are easier to untie--the rewoven overhand, the double bowline, or the figure eight with a yosemite finish (tail tuck). Secondly, the RW overhand is not an overhand on a bight since the tails come out different sides. It's more like a water knot in its construction. My point about strength only applies if you are using the loop of the knot to belay off of. Then, and only then, is it stronger in capsize strength (i.e. it rolls at a higher load) than the other knots. Think about using the EDK/flat overhand instead of the flat eight knot when setting up rappels (Tom Moyer testing data supports that). Same goes with clipping into the bowline's loop. I certainly haven't seen all the testing data that I want to see on knots, so I am not an expert as to exact numbers. The RW overhand is in the AMGA/ACMG Manual as a valid tie in knot and, as a full-time practitioner, I trust that resource. Regardless of the knot you use, if you're pulling a rope to failure, you have bigger problems! I've been told that one's hips and internal organs implode around 12kn (which happens to the the highest allowable impact force in UIAA testing), so you're going to break yourself before you break your tie in knot. It's all just fun internet debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Double bowline with a Czech finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 "The RW overhand is in the AMGA/ACMG Manual as a valid tie in knot and, as a full-time practitioner, I trust that resource." Fair enough, thanks. 12kn = 2600#. Typical 10.5 rope data in the test link I posted is close to 5000# break strength. Any knot will weaken the rope and depending on the knot used weaked the rope any where from the best at 20% to the worse tested @ 50%. 77% of the strength of the rope for a Figure 8 on a bite to 63% for a Bowline. One might want to see specific data on a knot you are not familiar with before "jumping" on it . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearbreeder Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 (edited) never had a problem ... the trick is the push the fig 8 apart first rather than pull it apart and once you get a gap you can use a biner to lever it dont really see the need for anything else ... IMO its more important to have a knot that you and any partner you climb with can easily check with a glance ... if some bum named Tommy uses it to climb Mescalito, its good enough for me, he takes more whipper than i ever will Edited February 3, 2011 by bearbreeder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonathanjarrett Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 I find it frustrating when people choose to use non-standard knots to tie in with. It makes it much more difficult for me, as the partner, to determine whether that person is tied in correctly or at all. As a result the tie-er is making the system less safe and removing me from the safety check. They have one less stop gap against failure. And no... I do not believe that it is my responsibility to know and be able to quickly identify every possible iteration of tie-in-knot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
112 Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Mark, buy a rigging knife with a marlinspike! Forget about the fids... Also, a neat knot is a happy knot. Sloppy knots are harder to untie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
112 Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Before this photo I hadn't really thought about rewoven versus retraced. But the picture makes perfect sense. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plaidman Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Not a problem outside, but it's been raining for months, and there is no outside. Outside is still there. I saw it today. But I was working. DAMN IT!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plaidman Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Simpler solution: get stronger. pink likes this Me too. I like it a lot. All though I heard that John Gill got so strong that he ripped his bicep right off his frame and had to have surgery to re-attach it. I guess you can over do anything. 1987 Serious injury – Gill’s right biceps muscle was torn from the forearm bone in a freak bouldering accident. Quits real bouldering and returns to solitary climbs and scrambles for more than 10 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Conway Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Mark, buy a rigging knife with a marlinspike! Amen. Marlinspike for untying, use a fid for splicing. Shitty rigging knifes can be picked up on fleabay for a ~$5 delivered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 All though I heard that John Gill got so strong that he ripped his bicep right off his frame and had to have surgery to re-attach it. I guess you can over do anything. You heard right. A disal detach of the bicep is a common injury for men over 40 that have a long history of physical exercise. Last count on Supertopo literally dozens of climbers, generally late 40s on, with a single or dbl complete distal detach. (bicep tearing off the forarm) Likely many more with partial tears that go undiagnosed. With a quick (less atrophy) surgery, not that big of deal to get back on the rock/ice at the level you left it. Same council Gill gave me FWIW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 I find it frustrating when people choose to use non-standard knots to tie in with. It makes it much more difficult for me, as the partner, to determine whether that person is tied in correctly or at all. As a result the tie-er is making the system less safe and removing me from the safety check. Hmmm, I know it's olde school and grossly un-PC of me, but I don't really want you to check my knot, thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plaidman Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 I find it frustrating when people choose to use non-standard knots to tie in with. It makes it much more difficult for me, as the partner, to determine whether that person is tied in correctly or at all. As a result the tie-er is making the system less safe and removing me from the safety check. Hmmm, I know it's olde school and grossly un-PC of me, but I don't really want you to check my knot, thanks. DITTO!! Now that's funny. Good one Joe! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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