Grades and Differences Erie vs Frenchmans

[Pilchuck71]

All right, I will freely admit that in my 20 years of climbing I have yet to truly break my leading ability past 5.9 trad.

I don't know if it is physical or mental but I just can't quite master anything above this level enough to get comfortable.

So this year I have made a commitment to bring my game up to the level of being able to lead 5.10 consistently.

I have changed my diet and been training like mad and climbing every chance I get and hogging the leads.

I am significantly stronger than I have been in years and my leading head is solid.

So over Easter weekend I was at Frenchmans on the far end of Sunshine wall and led a 5.10a. I then climbed it 4 more times no problem. I was stoked! I felt I was on my way to realizing my goal!

Then a few weekends ago I head out to Erie and tried to lead the 5.10 on the powerline wall (first climb to the right of the bolted 5.8) I got my ass handed to me on a plate. Granted it was a little wet (not that bad though), but I felt strong and confident until the 10' lead fall. I still felt strong but not confident.

So the question I have (one of the many) regarding this outcome is....

Do you believe that the ratings at Erie and Frenchmans are that far apart in comparison?

Also any tips for a crusty old slab dog like myself to bring it up to the next level?

Thanks in advance folks!

Tyson

Edited April 28, 2010 by Pilchuck71

[Kimmo]

the description "crusty old slab dog" kinda grosses me out, but:

 

i don't think the grades are that far apart, but the style might be a bit different; style can make grades seem way different.

 

also, don't get all bummed out by one single "failure". don't expect an across-the-board instant jump in your climbing level; instead, understand that it takes time for you to incorporate your new-found strength etc. improvements into the climbing game.

 

the more mentally and emotionally balanced you can stay in the face of "defeat", the more you can learn from these episodes. otherwise, you just get dejected and start to think "all that training for nuttin'". just get back on the horse, stay open to learning, and you'll keep improving (yes, even a little bit of wetness can fuck a climb up! don't discount it).

 

another point: there might be 10a's you'll get shut down on and not be able to figure out, and 10c's you might even flash in the near future.

 

 

[mountainsloth]

i will admit that i occasionally chase grades, but I try and always remember that grades are suspect, not an exact science, and most of all, opinions.

I am not a powerful climber, so overhung routes are always harder for me than slabs regardless of the rating.

How does that great quote go, "The best climber is the one having the most fun" (?)

Go out and send Pilchuck!

[Pilchuck71]

Thanks gentlemen -

 

Kimmo - better slab dog than crusty old scab log - Your points are definitely valid and appreciated. I do notice the benefits of the training, both on and off the technical and will relish those as the other aspects improve.

 

Mountainsloth - This is a first for me in so much as focusing on a grade point as a goal. In the past I have sought more in terms of generalities such as increased proficiency in overall mountaineering and the technical aspects of roped climbing.This new aspect of development for me is focused more on wanting to get on some specific alpine climbs with ratings (subjective as they are, which I totally agree) that are currently above my current level.

Fun is and always has been at the forefront of the whole pursuit for me. So I may be the best already. :tup

 

Again, thanks for the input.

 

Cheers!

Tyson

Edited April 29, 2010 by Pilchuck71

[dberdinka]

"(first climb to the right of the bolted 5.8)"

 

So the first climb to the right (hangers have flaky brown paint) is more like 10c/d.

 

And the climb to the right of that which is the classic 10a is petty freaking weird, sustained and hard for 10a. Ceratinly you can find many much easier 10a's in the world.

[Crack]

Great *crack* climbing at Vantage! Lots of stemming = rests which can help the numbers chasing...

[curtveld]

Yeah, Darin is on the money. Fittingly, that 10a is called the "Intimidator"! Grades are a bit stiff at Erie, especially the 10s. And Vantage tends to be on the soft side, so no suprise you noticed the discrepency.

 

Once your climbing is ready, breaking into 10s becomes mental. Keep jumping on them and you'll get it going.

[Crillz]

Once your climbing is ready, breaking into 10s becomes mental. Keep jumping on them and you'll get it going.

 

Totally agree.

Also, seams to me that a little bit more committment is involved in attempting the moves.

Also, seams to be that falling is more common once you get above 5.9s and low 5.10s.

[stevetimetravlr]

Read the book "The Rock Warriors Way". and not just once, read it when you go to bed, when you have a spare moment. Get that mindset, that acceptance burned into you brain. Then go out and send.

[Riley81]

I have always found that climbing with people who can already climb at those high levels is helpful. They may be able to provide beta that is hard to realize when struggling with moves on lead. Of course top roping the route you want to lead can also make it easier.

As far as grades go me and BenMurphy were out at Erie last night and we both got spanked by a 10c/d on top rope, I thought it was graded much harder then Frenchmans, And it wasn't raining, and my dog collected over 50 ticks. Man Erie is a great place to climb.

[Pilchuck71]

Freaking ticks! Hate them.

I appreciate all the input so far folks.

It helps to have some perspective of others.

 

Riley - Unfortunately non of my normal partners climb any harder than 5.8/5.9 and I am the only one that has shown any interest in bringing their leading abilities up a notch.

 

I might add that falling is something totally new to me (lead falls that is). The fall at Erie I described is actually my first ever lead fall of any significance. I have been fortunate that everything I have ever led I was able to onsite. Lucky me I suppose.

I have always been of the old school mindset that the leader must not fall. I realize however that as I move forward I will need to accept that this is part of the process.

 

Steve - I will definitely check out the book.

 

Darin, Curt and Crill - Thank you for your input. It is certainly valued.

 

Darin - this all started thanks to your Mythic Wall route It is my goal for the Summer to get that, hence the desire to up the level. I could not find a rope gun to string it for me.

 

Cheers all,

Tyson

 

[eldiente]

My 2 cents as it applies to trad. Try climbing routes outside of your comfort zone even if it means hang-dogging or French Free to get through it. Then work it on TR, then work it on lead, eventually you'll send and your confidence will increase and you'll gain valuable experience of what it feels like to climb at your limit.

 

Also, if you want to do just one thing to help bump up your fitness, hangboard. Even just once a week, grab onto small holds and hold them for a few seconds. No pull-ups needed here. Sounds boring but while your hanging there think about how it will feel to lock off on lead and fiddle a nut in. That hold you are hanging onto is going to feel very friendly compared to the hangboad that you are used to.

[Crillz]

I agree with the hangboard too.

 

At first I thought they were worthless for trad (had jamming tunnel vision or something), but I decided to get one after getting pimped on Clean and Jerk in J-tree. I have noticed the benefits on the stone - I hung mine up a few months ago.

Edited April 29, 2010 by Crillz

[Pilchuck71]

I have been reading and re-reading the rock warriors way and I have to admit it HAS made an impact in a positive way.

Thanks Steve!

[shapp]

I think we may be twins and on the same schedule. I have had the same problem over the same timer period and am activly changing that. The only thing I have found is to climb as many 5.10 trad routes as possible every time I go out.

 

[summitchaserCJB]

I've had problems breaking into the 10's too but I mainly climb at Index and Leavenworth. This year I've really been working on and have sent Sag, Rattletale, Breakfast, ect. routinely. Have you tried these? If, not, I'd start with breakfast, then Sag, then Rattletale. I agree with much of what has been said- mainly mental, falls are more common. But I find the 10's super fun!

[Sherri]

I've had problems breaking into the 10's too but I mainly climb at Index and Leavenworth. This year I've really been working on and have sent Sag, Rattletale, Breakfast, ect. routinely. Have you tried these? If, not, I'd start with breakfast, then Sag, then Rattletale. I agree with much of what has been said- mainly mental, falls are more common. But I find the 10's super fun!

Those are awesome sends, Summit! Congrats! Rattletale and BoC are at the top of my list for this season. I can't wait for the dry weather to come back!

 

I have always found that climbing with people who can already climb at those high levels is helpful. They may be able to provide beta that is hard to realize when struggling with moves on lead.

 

I've been lucky enough to follow Crillz on many of his projects at Index and can't say enough good things about the fun and benefits gained from of doing so. Partners like that are both a support and an inspiration, especially when you share the goal of helping each other to attain personal best. A good partner will want you to succeed.

 

 

 

 

 

[summitchaserCJB]

[selkirk]

granted, I'm certainly not an expert but.....

The three most valuable things I've picked up with regard to breaking into 10's and 11's are...

 

1. Judge every climb you consider attempting by whether you think you can climb it safely. If you can climb it safely give it a go, even if it scares you a little, and even if you're not sure you can get it clean. Yes, you might be exposed to some leader falls, but in my experience the adrenalin induced by trying to lead something onsight can make you climb at least a 1/2 grade harder!

 

2. Learn to rest well. Rest before you're tired on a climb. If there is a good rest, always take it. Learn to be creative in you're rests, use knees, scums, counterbalancing, and every other trick in the book, every chance you get. If it's not overhanging, and you run out of gas and fall off, it's likely not because you aren't strong enough, but because you weren't efficient enough in how you climbed up to that point. My own personal corollary to this is that Stemming is the solution to everything!

 

3. Learn to control the FEAR!! This is the most important one, and the hardest one. It's that IMHO keeps most people from leading below their potential. If the FEAR controls you, then you overgrip, you hesitate, you get Elvis leg, you waste time and energy putting in redundant gear, then you run out gas and pitch. I could wax philosophic but...

 

Big geek props to anyone who can identify the following....

I must not fear.

Fear is the mind-killer.

Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.

I will face my fear.

I will permit it to pass over me and through me.

And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.

Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.

Only I will remain.

[tomtom]

The litany against fear is an incantation used by the Bene Gesserit throughout the series to focus their minds and calm themselves in times of peril.

[JosephH]

In general, thinking and runaway mental babble IS the problem with fear so I wouldn't recommend making the internal 'dialogue' any worse then it already is - better to just stay focused 100% on the task at hand versus doing more 'talking' to try and 'calm' yourself.

 

First tip for breaking 5.10/.11 - lose 5, 10 or 15 pounds if you have it hanging around. It makes it a lot easier to bust a grade.

[billcoe]

First tip for breaking 5.10/.11 - lose 5, 10 or 15 pounds if you have it hanging around. It makes it a lot easier to bust a grade.

 

That's mostly it! You're an athlete Pilchuck! I was climbing 11s Ok when I was light, actually was over 12 for a tad (for me that means not hanging) and it's been going down a grade or 2 every year and few pounds since. Then last Sunday I wussed and pussed on Bewitched, a friggan bolted 5.9, even grabbed a quickdraw while following. It was raining and it was the 2nd pitch, but sheese.....

 

It's strength to weight ratio with climbing specific practice is all. Of course, I need to lose pounds as well (he says as he sips his red wine). Been working out and generally have had a great lead head for cracks/gear routes outside. Maybe it's just still early in the season. The other thing is to be aware that running 5.10 laps up lumps in a gym will not help you get up 5.10 cracks outside, in fact it may be counterproductive. Climbing hard (insert whatever you are working on, offwidths, fist cracks, thin cracks etc) will best be learned by following them, or to a lesser degree - toproping them. I think following is the best as you have to pause in the very same spots the leader paused to put in pro. So you might need to look at your partners. I know some of the young guys I climb with could benefit with a stronger partner and I tell them so. Shit, "don't hang out with old pussys all the time I tell them...." but they keep coming back anyway.

 

Good luck! Don't wait too long or if my experience is any guide, you'll be old, crotchety and fat before you know it:-)

[kukuzka1]

your right on selkirk

[Pilchuck71]

Thanks folks for all the input -

@ JosephH - I agree with your comments on the mental chatter. I instead of talking myself through sections on Silent Running I focused completely on the task at hand and used that focus to lead me away from the growing fear and hesitation caused by being a little run out on wet slabs. I also committed to each move and wholeheartledly accepted the outcomes/consequences which lent me a remarkable sense of calm and increased my confidence. As far as the weight goes, I have dropped 10# and improved my lifestyle in an effort to let my body work better and more effeciently towards my minds desires. The feeling of shedding those extra pounds and increasing my strength and aerobic capacity has made a huge difference in my mindset and I have noticed it on every trip over the last 2 months. I could not agree more.

 

@ Billcoe

"You're an athlete Pilchuck!" That realization has done more for me than almost anything else. Once I realized and accepted that fact the ability to make better food and lifestyle choices became much easier and also inspired me to take training alittle more seriously and commit. As far as partners go I think you are right and I am meeting more people and trying to get a wider array of partners with different focuses. On a side note, my main partner has found it in himself to push his limits a little more as well by seeing me improve he is becoming a little more willing to take on tougher challenges.

 

Cheers folks!

[JosephH]

My wife is a 10-year yoga practicioner who could kick my ass doing just about anything. I take her up Beacon's SE Face every so often. Last time she started to say something about difficulty/fear and I asked her if she 'was a yogi or not' - it earned me a dirty look but she effortlessly floated the rest of it. As you just noted mindset, self-perceptions, and outlook all count.