Will Jesus make me a better climber if I pray?

[Kimmo]

don't speak for other "non-believers"; learn to speak for yourself. it's an annoying, wince-inducing even, habit that you have. Learn to stand on your own two feet; don't include this "non-believer" in your offensive rhetoric.

[Water]

while I find hard-core religious types intent on pushing their world view, living in black and white absolutes, revulsive and plainly ignorant (6000 year old world), I have even less respect for atheistic zealots like richard dawkins. For masses who have simplistic fundamentalist beliefs, I can comprehend that many have not had the education, life-stability, ease of life, or opportunities to develop more comprehensive worldviews.

 

I find the active crusade against and belittlement of religion and spirituality to which the likes of Dawkins and certain others have taken upon to be downright embarrassing. Borat was more respectful than Maher. I would place the onus of responsibility and maturity on the worldly university academic to have developed, in addition to a reasoned intellectual position, an emotional and communication style capable of reaching said people they 'preach' against, and a way to go about their business without resorting to the same zealous single-minded focus that the people they speak against use, thinking in absolutes about religion. In their attitude and communication it is implied if you don't agree completely with their view, you are wrong, stupid, misguided.

 

disclosure: i am not religious, but ascribe to a neo-jungian/transpersonal approach

[tvashtarkatena]

Many find Dawkin's personal style offensive, and that's really the issue. He represents no one but himself. It's common to conflate the attitudes of all non-religious folks with Dawkins if one is uncomfortable with the idea of atheism itself, but that, of course, is simply one more layer of bullshit to wade through.

 

But lets examine the political agenda of atheists, even really, really BAD atheists like Dawkins, with that of, say, evangelical christians.

 

From a human rights perspective, the ideas of even a rabid atheist like Dawkins have no negative effect on human/civil rights. Contrast that with American evangelicals, who have been pushing a legislative agenda of anti-gay bigotry in the spirit of now defunct anti-miscegenation laws (the last of which was overturned in that Great Bible Belt State of Alabama as late as 2000, BTW), forcing a recently invented form of christian doctrine to be taught in schools, and having the State force women to bear unwanted offspring under penalty of imprisonment. I'm not even going to mention murdering doctors. Oops, I just did. Their agenda is completely at odds with core American values of freedom, as codified by the Constitution. It deserves a sound rejection and denunciation. From a personal standpoint, that's the aspect of christianity I focus on. I really don't care much what any individual believes...just attempt to have the State force your beliefs on me. Christians (evangelicals, mostly) do this...atheists don't.

Edited January 29, 2010 by tvashtarkatena

[Water]

i'll hear you on this in regards to political agendas. And those aspects of Christianity you focus on are real and are quite negative, though it seems to eschews a lot of the good done through the conduit of churches. I'm not convinced, but is it plausible people like Dawkins reinforce religious types that they are under attack, and help to galvanize their support?

 

I guess I maintain seeing a balance between the horrors of organized religion (but one not need that to be zealous and misguided, though believing a 'big man' in the sky wants things done certainly is more powerful than a big man behind a podium (political)) and the valuable contributions that church-organizations do make. I've been to some pretty multi-cultural, open churches that do a lot of good without pushing political agendas that limit anyone's rights or attempt to influence anyone's beliefs. While much of the positive things done through churches could just as well be done through volunteerism outside of church, if the church is the conduit for the good to happen so be it, I'm not one to complain (thinking of some Presbyterian churches I have been to-I'll be honest I'm not even sure if some of the people I've gone with really believe in god, but they sure as hell spend a lot of time helping out and doing positive things for the community through the church-raising money for environmental initiatives, promoting community health events, coat drives, food drives, etc). Dawkins and others can intellectualize and try to quantify net positives and net negatives from religion, but I would like to see what his contributions have mustered that compare to the positives of some churches.

[tvashtarkatena]

There are many brands of christianity, of course. I gave a 'sermon' at a universalist unitarian church 2 weeks ago, and the similarities with Pat Robertson's "the Haitians deserved it" folks and the good people in the pews in front of me were...not so much. I personally object to any form of religion that is exclusive; that is to say, preaches that believers are 'chosen' in some way, and that non-believers are slated for punishment. Feel free to believe that, of course...as long as you don't try to fold that into our laws, and I'll feel free to fundamentally disagree with such exclusive doctrines. When you start blabbing about Da Debbil n shit, however...sorry, but you're just a coo coo clock.

 

I just feel that such exclusive doctrines are not the way to move forward in this increasingly crowded world together. I realize that I'm going to Hell for believing that, but I take comfort in knowing that all my friends will be there with me.

Edited January 29, 2010 by tvashtarkatena

[tvashtarkatena]

I can't really comment on Dawkins much more than I have. I've never read any of his stuff.

[Choada_Boy]

I'm pissed off now, Jobu. Look, I go to you. I stick up for you. You don't help me now. I say "Fuck you," Jobu, I do it myself.

 

[markwebster]

I have never met a practicing christian as disrespectful as non beleivers who choose to spray on us. I lead by example. - Frank

 

Well said, and I stand corrected.

 

Having been raised in a strict Christian family, I had the stuff shoved down my throat. As a consequence, I have some residual anger that flares up towards religious people from time to time. I try to control it, but I am not always successful.

 

In person, I am very respectful towards others beliefs. When the Jehovah's Witnesses knock on my door, I try to be nice to them, but I also let them have the truth as I see it with both barrels.

 

I don't doubt that religion would help you climb better, though very few climbers I have met are religious. True believers seem to feel it is more important to "do good works", like: volunteer at a homeless shelter, than go climbing.

 

The serious Christians in my family work as missionaries, with no thought whatsoever of wasting time in something as frivolous as climbing.

[gyro]

I have never met a practicing christian as disrespectful as non beleivers who choose to spray on us. I lead by example.

 

In my old neighborhood I saw a 30ish year old mom, born again, tell an 11 year old Indian (sub continent) girl in a Hindu family that she was going to hell for not believing in Jesus and the 11 year old started crying.

 

Rabid atheists piss me off as well. Some people are just jerks, and they happen to have whatever belief, giving everyone else with that belief a bad rap as well. Being primarily agnostic with some spirituality thrown in I have had bad encounters with both believers and non believers of various denominations. They all have their jerks and trying to pick the group that has the most is about as futile as endeavors can get.

[bstach]

Many find Dawkin's personal style offensive, and that's really the issue. He represents no one but himself. It's common to conflate the attitudes of all non-religious folks with Dawkins if one is uncomfortable with the idea of atheism itself, but that, of course, is simply one more layer of bullshit to wade through.

 

But lets examine the political agenda of atheists, even really, really BAD atheists like Dawkins, with that of, say, evangelical christians.

 

From a human rights perspective, the ideas of even a rabid atheist like Dawkins have no negative effect on human/civil rights. Contrast that with American evangelicals, who have been pushing a legislative agenda of anti-gay bigotry in the spirit of now defunct anti-miscegenation laws (the last of which was overturned in that Great Bible Belt State of Alabama as late as 2000, BTW), forcing a recently invented form of christian doctrine to be taught in schools, and having the State force women to bear unwanted offspring under penalty of imprisonment. I'm not even going to mention murdering doctors. Oops, I just did. Their agenda is completely at odds with core American values of freedom, as codified by the Constitution. It deserves a sound rejection and denunciation. From a personal standpoint, that's the aspect of christianity I focus on. I really don't care much what any individual believes...just attempt to have the State force your beliefs on me. Christians (evangelicals, mostly) do this...atheists don't.

 

On what singularity of truth do atheists get their morality? Otherwise where do these "human rights" come from? What makes these "American values" and better than the Taliban? Seems to me Hitler could have been on the right track? Who's to say? Please accept my apology for my ignorance of this... I have not had the the education, life-stability and ease of life that you all have had.

[kevbone]

Seriously. I'm interested to hear peoples thoughts on this. If I go to church do you think Jesus power will make me climb harder??? Because, if Jesus helps me climb harder.....

 

Why did you post this in the climbers board? this topic can best be talked about in spray. There is no god.

[flashclimber]

Where are the moderators? SPRAY!!!!!!!!

[Off_White]

Kevin, your parsing of what is spray and what isn't is notoriously faulty. The OP put it here because he wanted the responses to be serious, not spray. I left it here to respect the wishes of the OP and to attempt, perhaps in vain, an adult conversation about a difficult topic.

 

If we could talk about religion, just maybe sometime we could have a conversation about climbing ethics that didn't instantly devolve to churlish insults and behavior you'd be embarrassed to have your mom witness.

 

Damn, I am an optimistic pollyanna, aren't I.

[denalidave]

Seriously. I'm interested to hear peoples thoughts on this. If I go to church do you think Jesus power will make me climb harder??? Because, if Jesus helps me climb harder.....

There is no god.

Prove it.

[rocky_joe]

I have never met a practicing christian as disrespectful as non beleivers who choose to spray on us. I lead by example. - Frank

 

Well said, and I stand corrected.

 

Having been raised in a strict Christian family, I had the stuff shoved down my throat. As a consequence, I have some residual anger that flares up towards religious people from time to time. I try to control it, but I am not always successful.

 

In person, I am very respectful towards others beliefs. When the Jehovah's Witnesses knock on my door, I try to be nice to them, but I also let them have the truth as I see it with both barrels.

 

I don't doubt that religion would help you climb better, though very few climbers I have met are religious. True believers seem to feel it is more important to "do good works", like: volunteer at a homeless shelter, than go climbing.

 

The serious Christians in my family work as missionaries, with no thought whatsoever of wasting time in something as frivolous as climbing.

 

First to Frankazoid. Never met a practicing Christian who sprays about non-believers?

http://www.godhatesamerica.com/

To extreme to be "practicing Christians?" Well how about the persistant spray from the Church towards gay and lesbian couples and individuals? Or preaching hellfire and brimstone about all non-believers? Or propagating the ideal of a "Good Christian Man/Woman, as if to imply religion is the requisite to be "good?" Or even better, how about the ceaseless internal squabbling that goes on within the church over the minutiae of Jesus' life or the OT? If that's not spiteful, disrespectful, hateful spray then Hilter was a nice guy.

 

Now back to climbing.

 

I really strongly doubt that religion of any creed will push one to higher levels of climbing. I don't think it works that way. Having grown up in the church, we were told that the Christian view of gifts, such as talent for climbing, were given to you at birth (or before) and that only through God could you maximize that potential (that is set at a predetermined level). So, yes if you believe like that, then sure God could help you maximize your talent, but it's not creating something, supernaturally, that isn't already there.

 

Do what you please, but I wouldn't suggest you look to serve yourself in religion/God, most religions encourage piety, humility, faith and commitment, and these take a lot of time away from focusing on yourself and climbing.

[kevbone]

Kevin, your parsing of what is spray and what isn't is notoriously faulty.

 

There is a difference between faulty and just have a difference of opinion.

 

The OP put it here because he wanted the responses to be serious, not spray.

 

If you want a serious reponse to such a crazy question....maybe the OP should think about going to church. There can be no serious answers on that topic on this board and you know it.

[kevbone]

Seriously. I'm interested to hear peoples thoughts on this. If I go to church do you think Jesus power will make me climb harder??? Because, if Jesus helps me climb harder.....

There is no god.

Prove it.

 

First you must prove he/she/it does exist.

[denalidave]

Seriously. I'm interested to hear peoples thoughts on this. If I go to church do you think Jesus power will make me climb harder??? Because, if Jesus helps me climb harder.....

There is no god.

Prove it.

 

First you must prove he/she/it does exist.

I don't need proof, you are the one making imperial statements.

[trainwreck]

The Great Zombie Jeebus didn't help Tobin Sorenson in the NF of Alberta.

Edited January 30, 2010 by trainwreck

[ZimZam]

If the greatest thinkers can't figure it out, then what makes you think that we can help you.

 

Only a god can save us.-Martin Heidegger

 

A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.-Friedrich Nietzsche

[Doug]

 

First you must prove he/she/it does exist.

 

Hey Kevbone, Head on out to the coast. The next wave you see coming in, try to stop it. Better yet, try to start one. Better yet, come up with something more spectacular than nature. That's pretty much all the proof I need. Call me stupid, but it works for me.

[pink]

 

First you must prove he/she/it does exist.

 

Hey Kevbone, Head on out to the coast. The next wave you see coming in, try to stop it. Better yet, try to start one. Better yet, come up with something more spectacular than nature. That's pretty much all the proof I need. Call me stupid, but it works for me.

 

[StevenSeagal]

I guess when pink joins the discussion it automatically gets filed to spray?

[pink]

and the thread comes to a dead stop... it's what i do .

[StevenSeagal]

Nice going, threadkiller!