Power drilling in Wilderness Areas

[tvashtarkatena]

I call on those who believe in the banning of battery powered (versus) manual drills in wilderness areas to also leave their altimeters, cell phones, GPSs, headlamps, PLUs, and iPods home before their next trip out.

 

Get real. The distinction of how the bolts are placed is patently ludicrous.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 1, 2010 by tvashtarkatena

[G-spotter]

It's the same as the difference between cutting down an oldgrowth tree with a swede saw vs a chain saw!

[tvashtarkatena]

You're exactly right. The issue, from an impact standpoint, is whether or not to allow tree cutting or bolting, not what device is used to do it.

[G-spotter]

... or gold mining with a pick and shovel instead of one of those giant bulldozers

[MarkMcJizzy]

 

Get real. The distinction of how the bolts are placed is patently ludicrous.

 

 

 

 

No it's not. Tell that to Kurt Smith and Scott Cosgrove

[tvashtarkatena]

... or gold mining with a pick and shovel instead of one of those giant bulldozers

 

Except that gold mining wasn't done that way. Prospecting was. Once gold was discovered, highly destructive placer mining was usually employed.

 

My point is; bolting regulation should be just that. Banning battery operated devices would, of course, have to include the other common devices I mentioned.

 

This is all recreational bickering, of course. I don't give a shit about the bolt issue one way or the other.

[Pete_H]

Generally an attempt by yesterdays climbers to discredit any new style of climbing they are unable to due because of LACK OF SKILL OR MOTOVATION.

 

Thanks for setting the record straight. Hopefully some day I will have the skill and "motovation" to "due" an overbolted .10b.

[dberdinka]

I'm curious if some of the more vocal opponents of IB here can articulate their feelings about Dave Whitelaw's "Slab Daddy". Of similar length, difficulty, bolted-ness and also located in a Wilderness Area. Of course the primary difference is that it was established with hand drills. You note that even the dreaded LW had some involvement!

 

Clearly Raindawg is simply pushing his strongest single arguement against IB. I'm sure he would have found a hand drilled IB equally objectionable.

 

I think Bug is claiming that bolts qualify as "structures" as described in the Wilderness Act. So whats ok and what isn't under the rules of "willy-nilly"?

 

Tvash are you indifferent to power drills? or against bolts in Wilderness areas?

 

Ultimately I don't see a lot of clarity if the issues people have is with the bolts or the method of placements.

 

As the D-town Crew has shown is is entirely possible to construct, using hand drills, LOTS of long, heavily bolted rock climbs. All it takes is experience, practice and dedication.

 

The fact it when putting up a "crag" style route in the mountains of Western Washington, getting there, cleaning the route and Tr'ing pretty much relegate you to about a pitch-a-day regardless of how you're drilling. As Whitelaw mentions in his article, he and his compadres can handrill a 3/8" hole in 6-10 minutes, whereas a powerdrill takes less than a minute. But if it took you 3 hours to get to your high point, another 4 hours of cleaning plus an hour of Tr'ing, and now you need to place 8 bolts, what difference does it make if one guy could powerbolt it in 15 minutes or two guys could handrill it in just over an hour?

 

My expectation is your going to see a lot more drilling in the future, particularly hand drilling as people discover that it's not the impossibilitly that we've (I've) assumed.

 

How are you going to feel about that?

 

One more aside, both D-town and IB are examples of "Wilderness" (with a capital W) areas where the boundaries are defined by elevation so that the valleys themselves can have roads punched up them so the forest can be clearcut whereas the economically useless "rocks and ice" can be protected. I'd guess a lot of crgas and potential crags are found in a similar situation.

 

Tvash. The ban is on "Motorized" equipment. So anything with a spinning hard drive (think ipods) are banned in wilderness areas. Though I concede a signiifcant difference bewteen ipods and rotary hammers.

[Pete_H]

Good observations Darin. Those are important topics for future discussion.

 

I have always wondered why bikes aren't allowed in wilderness areas. They obviously aren't mechanized.

[Pete_H]

what difference does it make if one guy could powerbolt it in 15 minutes or two guys could handrill it in just over an hour?

 

I do think hand drilling encourages use of less or superfluous bolting and the route developer is encouraged to make more judicious and efficient use of bolts, which results (IMHO) in not only less impact, but a better quality route.

[tvashtarkatena]

My stance on bolting is been made pretty clear (as if anyone actually cares): I don't care. From an impact standpoint, and I include pure visual aesthetics here, it's simply a non-issue. There is no real impact to any amount of bolting as compared to any other human use one can think of. I therefore see it as a dilettante's issue; if one were really an environmentalist per se, one would always choose to focus on any other environmental issue out there rather the one that is really a question of personal preference and sensibility and not much more.

 

That's not to say I think that Whitelaw and company's efforts are in any way ridiculous because they eschew battery powered bolting. They are following their own personal ethics, its their business, and I appreciate the work they've done putting up some of the best routes in WA. If they'd used power drills I'd feel exactly the same way.

 

The non environmental issues associated with bolting; retro bolting, for example, are a different matter; one of etiquette. I think it's important to observe generally established etiquette in any discipline as a matter of courtesy and respect to those who have pioneered an area before you. Conflating this issue with an environmental one, however, to me, is a stretch, considering the impact that hunting, logging, mining, grazing, fire (mis)management, and motorized recreation, to name a few, have on these very same areas.

[Choada_Boy]

nobodys going to spend 2 summers to chop the route rainpuss,you might stir up someone to chop a few of the first pitches and the climbers in the real world that actually climb have allready got the money for hardware and manpower in place to retro it.

 

Thanks to you, this topic is now in spray. Happy now????

 

Yes.

[tvashtarkatena]

The ban on bikes in many areas is most likely tribal; hikers versus bikers, horse people versus bikers, hunters versus bikers. It's probably 99% perceptual and 1% reality based...like most issues.

 

Unlike any other human activity in the wilderness, bikes (can) move fast. People are, frankly, jolted by them and at times afraid of being hit by them. Horses can produce similar fears, but horses have the historical and political benefit of being there first (the PCT was originally made for them, for example), plus the whole iconic American romanticism cowboy myth...despite the fact that nothing fucks up a wilderness area faster than a pack train. None of it's logical (it's not like the super logical bolting debate), but there you have it.

Edited February 1, 2010 by tvashtarkatena

[kukuzka1]

a key question is it a crag or a mountain? if we want to turn it into a crag then id be all for bolting lines up it but in my view its a mountain. also do we want trams all over the pickets. just because europe does it, it doesnt always mean its always for the best

[Pete_H]

We should have one tram into an alpine cirque in the Cascades. Or at least a hut system or some shit.

[G-spotter]

... or gold mining with a pick and shovel instead of one of those giant bulldozers

 

Except that gold mining wasn't done that way. Prospecting was. Once gold was discovered, highly destructive placer mining was usually employed.

 

Stick to politics

You'd be OK with this if it was pick and shovel?

[AlpineK]

Butte Montana has a much bigger problem with environmental degradation than all the bolts in the world have caused. Now if you add in the Kellogg ID area bolts are nothing more than a blip only visible to a couple people.

[billcoe]

Butte Montana has a much bigger problem with environmental degradation than all the bolts in the world have caused. Now if you add in the Kellogg ID area bolts are nothing more than a blip only visible to a couple people.

 

I'd say anyone who watches the Forest Service budget would be shocked how many NEW roads they bulldoze into areas. That's how it is. But we can still have this (non)debate for no apparent reason. Anyone need pictures of them with Bulldozers and graders on the sacred Mt Rainer?

 

Pitons should be banned as well do you all not think, as they actually cause environmental destruction and permanent irreversable damage. Were Pins used on the other routes? Furthermore, as Ice axes can be utilized on rock, and thus cause destruction, then they should be bannezed as well.

 

Right Don?

[Kimmo]

nobodys going to spend 2 summers to chop the route rainpuss,you might stir up someone to chop a few of the first pitches and the climbers in the real world that actually climb have allready got the money for hardware and manpower in place to retro it.

 

Thanks to you, this topic is now in spray. Happy now????

 

seems like most are.

 

and it seems pretty settled: most think it was wrong to bolt, most think it shouldn't be removed, and most think it developed excellent awareness about the fact that no more routes such as it will be tolerated.

 

so you asked a question, the responses came in, and you are in a one or two person minority. live with it.

[Bug]

The feeble minded have melded now and are venting everything they don't know and don't understand about wilderness, ethics, and history.

The Forest Service is the primary tool used against wilderness (recreation divisions not usually included). Once a road is bulldozed, the area is removed from wilderness consideration. Gosh, you don't think GW would have abused that do you? Naw.

And his father declared himself "The Environmental President".

 

So if it ain't as bad as the Butte pit go ahead n fuck it up.

Yup. Shit on it till nobody thinks its OK.

An don't phuckin talk about it until then.

Good logic.

 

Seems like I hear this from rednecks in Montana too. Until the same degradation is foisted off onto their land.

 

 

 

[G-spotter]

According to Jared Diamond's argument in Collapse the same degradation has already been foisted off onto their land.

[dberdinka]

Bug! I just feel the need to point out that your issue

 

For me the issues are bolting willy-nilly in a wilderness.

 

is a prime example of the second half of Luckys post..(not that I'm claiming your frustrated just that your vague)

 

Ethics police:

People who feel frustrated with life and sublimate a desire to be Nazis by enforcing rules that only they are clear about.

 

Whats willy-nilly? When is a bolt OK in wilderness? When isn't it?

 

 

[tvashtarkatena]

Feck clearly stated his point: there are much bigger fish to fry as far as environmental issues are concerned. Actually, there isn't a smaller fish to fry than the 'bolt pandemic'. One might choose to, say, fight mining interests, for example. Lost on some, but a well punctuated point, nonetheless.

[Choada_Boy]

Meanwhile...

 

 

 

 

Edited February 2, 2010 by Off_White

[Bug]

IB is pretty much exclusively bolt protected. It deserves the description of being bolted "willy-nilly" imo.

I feel that some bolting in a wilderness area is passible practice when the route utilizes clean protection for the vast majority of the climbing. It was not a-typical in the Bitterroot for a 5 pitch climb to have one or two bolts or pins. Some routes there had as many as one or two bolts or pins per pitch (very rare). Some were run out and scarey.

The point is that the clean style was utilized where ever possible. If a proposed route inside the wilderness became primarily dependent on bolts as protection, it became a controversy. I do not know of any sport routes that were installed inside the Bitterroot wilderness. I do know people who would trot right up there and remove them.

Lower Blodgett, and Mill creek were areas that became bolting areas.

Most of these were put in by hand and none of them were inside the wilderness boundary.

IB was a mistake (FA party was not aware they were inside the wilderness) and I am not a proponent of removing it unless it becomes a precedent for wilderness bolting. The damage is done. My interest is to keep the discussion well known enough that it is not mistaken for an acceptable standard.