Sport vs Trad

[olyclimber]

but richard, don't you think that its really really important that we get this all worked out ASAP? :[]

[olyclimber]

we've gotten so much traction!

[richard_noggin]

Edited August 1, 2009 by richard_noggin

[Ponderosa]

Who the fuck is this Max Hassan and what is he doing plagiarizing Max Hasson's photos?

 

Call him Max. I do. I haven't actually met him yet, but we're on a first name basis. I'm sure once we meet we'll become good friends.

 

But then, that friendship shall be cleaved when you find you're on opposites of the Great Bolt Divide.

 

Sadly, I've seen it happen all too often.

[Ponderosa]

 

what the fuck dude ^

You should see the later depictions where the d00d's got only goats to eat - old ones, like Raindawg.

[tvashtarkatena]

 

Proof positive that bolters eat their own children.

[Choada_Boy]

 

Yummy! Saturn eating his son! Goya had this one hanging at the dinner table.

 

Back to the "discussion" at hand:

 

Unless you live in a Unibomber shack in the middle of nowhere, and grow all your own food, and write out your anti-bolting screeds by hand, with a feather quill and homemade ink, by the light of a hand carved seal oil lamp, you're a weak ass hypocrite.

[tvashtarkatena]

This dark piece marked the nader of Goya's career.

[Bosterson]

This dark piece marked the nader of Goya's career.

 

You mean after doing that painting, Goya kept running for president as a dark horse third party candidate?

[tvashtarkatena]

You're outside the inside joke.

[billcoe]

For Don:

 

I have nothing but the deepest respect for what you do for a profession. It is more interesting and important than what 90 percent of the rest of us do.

 

Moving on - I don't think I fully understand what you preach. How do you respond to my thoughts that all El Cap routes would be impossible without bolts, and that in your view, they would all be closed as they are impossible to ascent without bolts. Every Glacier Point climbs as well which rely on bolted anchors, some very classic routes which date to the 50s and 60s. AND, if you feel that way about bolts, can we assume that pitons would be banned everywhere on public property as well?

 

Please read this thread. http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=912351&tn=0&mr=0 Couple of old timers replacing the old crap bolts on the apron. Should all these routes be de-commisioned and erased by having the bolts removed and the holes filled?

 

Really, I'm curious.

[billcoe]

Still for Don

 

For Don:

 

I have nothing but the deepest respect for what you do for a profession. It is more interesting and important than what 90 percent of the rest of us do.

 

Moving on - I don't think I fully understand what you preach. How do you respond to my thoughts that all El Cap routes would be impossible without bolts, and that in your view, they would all be closed as they are impossible to ascent without bolts. Every Glacier Point climbs as well which rely on bolted anchors, some very classic routes which date to the 50s and 60s. AND, if you feel that way about bolts, can we assume that pitons would be banned everywhere on public property as well?

 

Please read this thread. http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=912351&tn=0&mr=0 Couple of old timers replacing the old crap bolts on the apron. Should all these routes be de-commisioned and erased by having the bolts removed and the holes filled?

 

Really, I'm curious.

[billcoe]

What is a 2 bolt full length apron pitch? Sport or trad? How about the same pitch length on Glacier point apron with 3 pitons fixed? Is that "sport" or "trad"?

 

Here's a pic of the lil Dawg to revel in while you consider these ideas. PS, Lil Dawg gets 14 holes per charge.

 

But they are huge holes, 1/2 x 6-1/4" long. I can get a hole done in @ 8 seconds where the rock is soft. Longer for traditional basalt.

 

Haha, "Trad" basalt. Like this one below in the city park rappel anchor which Lil Dawg was fired up to do. I had to hold him back he was so excited.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

 

BORING!

[E-rock]

Meanwhile, in the city, some woman was just acquitted for beating another woman to death in broad daylight, with dozens of witnesses, because the victim had the audacity to try to break up a fight between their teenage daughters. Several others have been indicted for assault in the case, but the person who delivered the fatal blow still walks my streets along with sport climbers, through-hikers, downhill mountain bikers, jay-walkers, tax accountants, and door-to-door salespeople. It's enough to make you want to sandbag your windows, and start capping perps with a sniper rifle.

 

[olyclimber]

[billcoe]

Meanwhile, in the city, some woman was just acquitted for beating another woman to death in broad daylight, with dozens of witnesses, because the victim had the audacity to try to break up a fight between their teenage daughters. Several others have been indicted for assault in the case, but the person who delivered the fatal blow still walks my streets along with sport climbers, through-hikers, downhill mountain bikers, jay-walkers, tax accountants, and door-to-door salespeople. It's enough to make you want to sandbag your windows, and start capping perps with a sniper rifle.

 

Try and calm down and stay on task dude, she was acquitted it reads. Anyway, is that better than stealing her parents ashes and burning her house down? http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090804/ap_on_re_eu/eu_switzerland_novartis_attacks;_ylt=An3Ilvc63CXp_b24PQLQpbMPLBIF;_ylu=X3oDMTM1NDQzaGFrBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMDkwODA0L2V1X3N3aXR6ZXJsYW5kX25vdmFydGlzX2F0dGFja3MEcG9zAzEwBHNlYwN5bl9hcnRpY2xlX3N1bW1hcnlfbGlzdARzbGsDbm92YXJ0aXNhY3Rp

 

"BERN, Switzerland – Drug maker Novartis AG said Tuesday that animal rights activists have stolen the ashes of its CEO's mother and set fire to his Austrian hunting lodge."

_____________________________________________________________

 

we have a dawg question still outstanding.

[Off_White]

 

 

PS: horse died in 1982

[billcoe]

Mmmmmmmm, Dead Horse....mmmmmm

 

Guess Don really didn't want to have this dialog after all then. He must know how F*ed up his position and logic really is. I should bow out and cease the discussion with a sport climbing picture by way of a finale but I'm too much of a gentleman.

 

Wait, I'm a dick, here's the picture, all thats missing is 3 more bolts in the picture.

 

No, must resist urge..........got to see what we're talkin about here:

 

 

 

 

So I am a dick, but where's the ethical horror and tragedy here?

 

Mmmmm, Dead Horse, mmmmmmm

[JosephH]

PS: horse died in 1982

 

True enough. It must have been the horse The Impossible was riding to escape on. We know who murdered them, but up until now it was a mystery as to exactly how the horse died...

 

[Off_White]

Joe, I know your upbringing in Bumfuck, SoIll led you to conclude that bolts were not traditional, but I suggest you tell John Salathe's descendants that he was a worthless sport climber since he placed bolts on the Lost Arrow well before our time. You and I started climbing at roughly the same time, and bolts were always a factor in west coast climbing, the only issue with sport climbing was the method of installation not the use of bolts themselves. If you could stand (or hang there on a hook, as was the case on Bacher-Yerian) there on the route, a bolt was considered absolutely valid.

 

The only question is about the experience of the first ascent party; after that it's all a question of how the following hordes deal with the runouts dictated by the FA's placements. It's all just a rubric between the rock, skill, ego, and conformity.

 

Runout 5.10 bolt protected face climbs put up by 5.12 climbers is just wankery, pure and simple.m

 

It wasn't bolts that killed the horse, it was the people involved in the posturing. The horse being dead means that the peculiar lost backwater staked out by you and Raindawg's opposition to bolts as protection is the equivalent of the human appendix.

 

Most folks involved in climbing of any sort recognize the ethical superiority of the onsite ground up first ascent, but from a practical viewpoint, this has little to do with the quality or popularity of the line climbed.

 

 

[JosephH]

Folks weren't sport climbing on the West Coast in the 60's and 70s and I don't have a problem with bolts used judiciously - Eldo and the Gunks as perfect examples. I have a problem with rapaciously paving over every rock in the country with bolted sport lines, particularly given the resulting demographic, mentality, and "conformity" they perpetuate. And truth be told, my main objection back around '82 was the dogging, and that sport lines should have some rating distinction. But that's not news, and I have no problem being one of the last remaining climbers alive who feels that way. Also, I have zero interest in the popularity or other's perception of the lines I put up or do. I don't climb for other people and if a route of mine is never repeated and / or people don't care for it, that's fine with me.

 

I agree the horse is long, long dead, I only posted here relative to how it got that way.

[RuMR]

Joseph, have you climbed in europe? Just asking, not trying to pick a fight or anything like that...

[JosephH]

Yes, trad. Same in Krabi, the only trad rack in the country at the time I suspect. Not really into the 'do as the Euros do' sort of thing, though I suspect the proliferation of via ferratas in this country has only just begun.

[Off_White]

Joe, Via Ferrata paranoia is ridiculous, proliferation is not even much of an issue in Europe, much less in this country. There is no equivalency between bolt protected face climbing and via ferrata.

 

Set up your straw men all you want, but it's a pathetic exercise obvious to all.