Fixed in the alpine?

[Dane]

For the few that know me they'll get a laugh out of this after my stance on Dishman and retro bolting trad routes.

 

One of the plans this winter is take a quick trip to Chamonix again and climb some alpine ice gullys with quick access from the trams and fixed rap decents. You can get a lot of climbing in within a short time frame with that kind access.

 

So last week I got a chance to do the NE Coulior on Dragontail. Done Dragontail many times and enjoyed the entire trip every time. The NE Coulior in good ice conditions is a stellar climb, every bit the equal of any moderate in Chamonix. Gotta admit the decent down Asgard in the dark was a little over the top for the amount of fun involved.

 

So I started thinking, ya the route was really fine, but the decent sucked compared to the length of quality climbing. Would a set of rap anchors all the way out of the gully and fixed gear on the last two pitches make the climb more fun? Besides being quick you'd turn a 2 hr climb with a 6 hr r/t approach and decent into something that would be fun to do laps on.

 

Crazy idea? Or just dumb? I already know I am getting old and lazy

[akicebum]

Please don't. Once done it cannot be undone, and you will more than likely regret it. Read Bonatti's the Mountains of my life and look at what happened to his routes. Or Marc Twight's beyond good and evil. It makes it it easier but not every climbing area needs to be Chamonix Disneyland. Even though it is a low use area, that isn't to say it won't see more use 70 years down the road. Do the right thing and suffer.

[genepires]

Were you thinking of bolt anchors? If the rap anchors could be made with nuts, pins and the mtn standard slung horns and pinched blocks, then it wouldn't be bad as it would be removable.

 

Would the anchors be damaged by winter avi's?

 

I would use fixed anchors if they were there.

[G-spotter]

Shit, if you really want to be French just call in the helicopter from the summit.

[genepires]

maybe the heli can bring wine and cheese!

[ivan]

the question posed here reminds me of that terrance and phillip episode - you know, the one were terrance is like "phillip, i believe there's something stuck in my anus - could you check it out for me please" and phillip is like "certainly terrance, here i come"

[AlpineK]

Dragontail's future

 

[img:center]http://thealps.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/marmoada1.jpg[/img]

[Dane]

The gully gets cleaned on a regular basis all winter and builds a deeper and deeper snow pac. To be useful anchors would have to be put in very late in the summer or late fall, low on the sides of the gully. They would be buried most of the year. To set stuff up for full 55m raps and to be used as running belays in the lower gully about the only thing that would really work (and last) would be stainless 3/8" bolted anchors with chains.

 

Done right it could be done fairly cleanly. Up high, fixed pins are going to be required to keep the run outs under 30 feet or so. I think we (Craig) used 8 pieces in two pitches with zip really for the intermediate belay. There were two bad fixed pins one on the first and one on the second pitch.

[Sol]

leave no trace.

[marc_leclerc]

Im sorry but bolts in alpine setting take away from the experience... Fixed pins here and there and slings for rap anchors are fine but bolts!!?! NO! I heard some guy say something about bolting belay and rap stations of the NEB of Slesse being a good idea and I was like NO! That would entirely ruin the routes appeal (big, remote) Im a firm believer in No Bolts in the alpine unless placed on lead by the FA Party... On unfamous peaks where nobody would put a route up the traditional way (ie.. infinite bliss) i guess its not the end of the world....

[Ade]

I just replied to your other thread on this. It seems like you really are serious.

1) It's in a wilderness area. There may be implications to adding a lot of fixed gear.

 

2) You're prepared to hike 3-4 hours to the route but not spend an additional hour or so on the descent?

 

3) Multiple parties rapping down on each other would be a mess. It would really only be a reasonable option for the last party.

 

4) This is a very late year for snow. In a more typical year this route may not freeze up before it gets buried. Hardly anything in the Cascades gets hordes of ascents in winter because conditions are so variable. Contrast conditions on your ascent with ours only a few days later - primo vs. less so.

 

5) Last and definitely not least... One of the great things about the Cascades in winter conditions is the sense of big commitment even when you're only a few hours from the trailhead. Do you really want to detract from that?

 

You'll note that there are some practical reasons for not doing this in addition to some you could put into the ethics bucket. It would be a lot of effort for a route that is probably only climbable for a few days each season if that. Hardly a trade route.

 

That aside I'd urge you not to start bolting lines simply for convenience's sake. You could argue that the crux could take a few bolts to make it safer. That's a different discussion. From what you wrote it seems you just feel like the descent down Asgard is just too much like hard work.

 

As you pointed out if you want convenient routes with easy access "just drive north to Canada". If you want to avoid descending Asgard in the dark start earlier.

 

I'm old and lazy too. My ankles aren't giving me any love after descending Asgard last night but it never occured to me that a bolted rap line would be the solution.

 

Cheers,

 

Ade

 

[TimL]

Dane's idea seems very Euro. So many mountains and routes are bolted for descent, and quick bail off. It's nice and very comfortable. Opens routes to the masses and can be the cause of serious clusterfucks here and there due to over crowding. In one way I do like it cause you can bang multiple long rotes off in a day and get a lot of climbing in. IMO, leave the Cascades wild. The beauty about the Cascades is that is is still a fairly remote, untamed experience. I think it should stay that way. Thats why I keep coming back every other summer. For that wilderness experience. We should try to preserve it.

[mvs]

leave it alone!

[DPS]

Do it right; install a tram from the trail head to Colchuck Col. While you are at it install a tram to Boston Basin as well. And a hut.

[dberdinka]

Huts would be sweet. Now your talking. Food service, linens and beer please.

[Choada_Boy]

Please install a ladder at each crux.

[ZimZam]

LNT.

 

 

[DPS]

I was being cheeky about the trams, but I seriously think huts would be a better solution for popular areas like Boston Basin and Colchuck lake.

[ken4ord]

In general if there is a walk-off, I'll take that rather than rapping a route with fixed anchors. I think you are being old and lazy. Now if was a non-walk-off mountain then maybe there could be some justification, but really how many descents do you really need?

[rat]

fixed raps on that? fatwhitefuck convenience.

 

given the increased popularity, tat will show up regardless. clean it on the way up.

[Raindawg]

Dane...you're usually ONE COOL CAT but this time you disappoint me.

You are sharing some dark, dark fantasies, my brother, that are better left in the mental closet.

The answer is clear....leave it alone....that Euro-stuff has already proven itself to be an infectious, lazy path to environmental and ethical stupidity. (read between the lines).

 

P.S. I still think you're ONE COOL CAT (most of the time!)

[eric8]

I don't think this route would have bolted rap stations in cham. In the 15 or so routes I climbed in cham. I saw two bolted stations. It would probably have fix tat from people bailing but not from someone who set out to make a route you can rap. There are lots of routes in cham that end on ridges or the walk off puts you in another valley. So you really have to rap the route.

 

There are places like on the east face of tacul that have fixed stations even though there are walk off routes possible. But you can probably climb routes on the east face of the tacul 6 months out of the year. or more depending on the year.

[el jefe]

it's a walk off. leave it as it is.

[ivan]

I seriously think huts would be a better solution for popular areas like Boston Basin and Colchuck lake.

depends - would you be able to smoke in them?

[akicebum]

I was being polite earlier when I said all that crap about doing the right thing for yourself. Here are a few things to consider:

 

 

1. Did you yourself put up the first ascent and now feel the need to improve a route you opened. Or are you spoiling the integrity of the first ascent party and every person that has had an epic or adventure descending the route?

 

2. Do you really think bolts and fixed pro add to the adventure?

 

3. Why exactly do you climb in the mountains?

 

I was in the shower thinking about all the times I have looked for natural anchors on descents and sweated it out on marginal belays to avoid bolting on routes I have put up. I was be violently angry if someone came along and retro bolted any of the routes I've authored. They have a word for them you know "Pussy Bolts."

 

I think you had the best of intentions with this post and maybe you just let your imagination wander a little to far.