caught in fog on a glacier - what to do?

[danhelmstadter]

OK - so this is one of those stupid questions that I already know the answer to, but I threw it out here in hope of getting a few tips, preventative and consequentail.

 

I don't have a gps - can't afford one. GPS seems like a key tool for navigateing. I need to start carrying a compass, and become familiar with it. Amar's harrowing Rainier TR is a testament to the importance of compass use.

 

Wands are another thing I should think about carriying this time of year, although they definetly have their limitations and should not be relied upon fully - nor should a gps. I have never used wands before, and I'm a little unfamiliar with some of the advantages of useing them. When placeing wands, is it common practice to take and record a compass bearing in the direction of the next wand or landmark etc... ??? I could imagine that would slow one down quite a bit, but also might prove invaluable once in a while.

 

So - wands, compass, map, are there any other navigational techniques, secrets, or tools that can aid mountain enthusiasts who dare to venture into stormy cascade winter alpine environs?

 

 

Edited November 10, 2008 by danhelmstadter

[ivan]

on mt hood, you can navigate in a white out on most routes solely w/ an altimeter

[genepires]

the key element for wands is that you place them every rope length. If you go down in a white out, the idea is that the last person never goes past a wand without the first climber being at another wand. If the first is not at a wand (and the last person is) then the rope team swivels till the wand is found and you continue onwards. If the wands are farther than a rope length, then you can easily miss the way. It is slow and you need lots of wands, but this practice has worked well for me many times.

 

The only time this didn't work well was when it snowed 4 feet and the wands were buried. Simple compass work, help from the last person (see below) and a dash of luck got us back.

 

If you had some specially marked wands (maybe different tape) that marked change in direction, then a recorded bearing or simply knowing the is a change would be very helpful.

 

some people will record a basic plan for the ascent before the ascent to include rough bearings and altitudes at major features. That way they hove something to climb with or follow back if the weather turns at some point.

 

I would much rather follow a wand track than follow bearings or a gps or a record of bearing and altitudes. Much faster.

 

I have never used a gps unit as I am too old school. So I can't really compare the ancient techniques vs modern tools. Heck, I got a altimeter watch around 6 years ago after a lot of back talk about it. And I really like it now and that has saved me a couple times too.

 

 

 

For navigating backwards with compass, it is very hard to follow a bearing conistently for the person up front. Small errors compound for significant error. It is best if both the front and back person use the compass. The back person can use the visual of the straight rope team along with the compass bearing to keep the rope team going the right way. It is annoying for the first person to be told many times to move left or right but it is very important. This has also helped me out a couple times.

[Cobra_Commander]

In a true white-out, where you start tripping up because you can't even tell the slope angle, sometimes it's best to just sit down and wait on broken-up glaciers you are not familiar with. You really should be good with a compass and altimeter if you're climbing anything in the Cascades. GPS can work very well if you set up waypoints on the way up, then use compass to navigate to the points in the white out.

 

[danhelmstadter]

Ivan, thanks - altimeter, I've never used one, but I need to add that to the list. On this poinT - anyone have any suggestions for where one may aquire an affordable altimeter?

 

On Mt. Hood, one has the navigational advantage of useing the chairlift for a guide to timeberline. It definetly saved me some trouble last june when I skiied the reid - it was bueatiful sun up high, but nasty marine layer below 8k, the top of the lift barely visible above the marine layer was a hell of a piece of mind.

[Crevasse]

Get a gps. It is worth it and use waypoints.

[danhelmstadter]

Thanks guys, great stuff.

[ScaredSilly]

Three items - map, compass, and altimeter. A GPS is optional and can fail. I am not a big fan of them in most cases.

 

An additional tool, study pictures of the route. Look for key navigational points, rocks, seracs, etc. In this day of instance photos aka a digital camera take photos and use them.

 

The other is when going up - turn around and look at where you have been, it may be the way back.

 

In a nasty white out watch and note the snow consistency the ground around ridgelines. It will often change from the leeway to the windward side. Learning how to walk the fine line between the two may keep you from walking off a cornice.

 

[danhelmstadter]

years ago i met this redneck in some peice of shit bar in Idaho Springs Colorado, he told me that once he intentionally cut himself and used his own blood for markings in the snow to help get back to his hunting camp, thats pretty core shit - but almost predictable comeing from some toothless john-deer hillbilly. It got me thinking though - maybe i can use some kind of makeshift markers if i don't have wands with me.

 

I definetly need to get and familiarize myslef with an alt. comp. etc... And possibly a gps if i can find a used one --- I'm definetly interested in buying if anyones got one for sale.

Edited November 10, 2008 by danhelmstadter

[ken4ord]

If I bring anything it is a compass and knowledge of where I am going. I am going to get techno soon and get myself logger, just so I can start mapping mountain bike routes, but that is about as far I like to go. I love looking at maps and studying them, but rarely carry them with me. I owned a GPS unit for several years and never took it out of the box, finally I just gave it to a friend. I try to remember terrain features on the way up and in a white go with the feel of the terrain on the way down. I figure worst comes to worst I end up in the wrong valley and go up and over again. I guess I like the adventure.

 

I have found the snowball trick useful a few times in mountain whiteouts. That is if you are unsure if you are at the edge of an abysis or crevasse throw a snowball what the terrain is before commiting. Or just kick clumps of snow ahead of myself. I always make it a habit to look back whenever I am traveling anywhere.

[billcoe]

In a true white-out, where you start tripping up because you can't even tell the slope angle, sometimes it's best to just sit down and wait on broken-up glaciers you are not familiar with. You really should be good with a compass and altimeter if you're climbing anything in the Cascades. GPS can work very well if you set up waypoints on the way up, then use compass to navigate to the points in the white out.

 

There it is. In the cold, when you GPS batteries have died, this is it. Of course, there are whiteouts and there are whiteouts. I've seen people call pretty reasonable weather that has a little fog and snow a whiteout. Usually when its real bad, the wind is going sideways and some kind of cold stinging pellet is smacking anything exposed. You can barely stand upright, and just taking a step and not falling is difficult as you can barely see your boots, let alone the white color of the snow and features like depressions and holes underneath. At such times, wands are IT, as even looking consistently at a compass is difficult, let alone a map in 50 mph winds. As you walk south you are being blown East, and really unable to know how much lean into the wind is truly compensating to the drift which is happening.....

 

It's rare that anyone really NEEDS wands. But when you need them, you REALLY NEED THEM! Unlike many, I was never smart enough to use them when I really needed them and had some lucky moments and got back anyway.

 

Compass's are cheap, so maybe climb with someone who already has an altimeter and wands, and you'll be set!

[korup]

Dan- you can pick up a used Sunnto Vector or Altimax pretty cheap on ebay or cc.com. They are bomber, and uber-reliable if you set it to a known elevation when you head out. Mine has saved my butt many times.

[marc_leclerc]

If you keep going down you will end up at the bottom.

[Choada_Boy]

I use the Canadian Method: abandon my partners and head down to the hut so that I can get some shuteye.

[montypiton]

I survived precisely this scenario descending after climbing the N. Face of Mt. Robson in 1979. Having summitted near midnight, we chose to wait for daylight to descend, since we would be descending a route unfamiliar to us. By daylight, fog had moved in, and we had a full on whiteout. Knowing that our descent followed the south ridge, we used compass and rope to navigate a straight south bearing (one climber stationary, watching the rope pay out, and calling directions to the moving partner who was invisible). We found a line of tracks leaving the ridge towards the Robson Glacier, which was where we had camped, so we followed them, descending the Kain Face without visibility. At the base of the Kain Face, we found ourselves in a crevasse field, still with no visibility. At that point, we sat down and waited for the fog to lift or clear. One bivouac later, we had visibility again, and threaded our way through the crevasses on the snow dome, and down to our glacier camp. Expertise with map, compass, gps, and altimeter will all expand your capabilities, but none of these will get you through a complicated crevasse field. Wands only help if you're retracing your previous route. Sometimes, you have no choice but to simply sit it out.

[Bug]

Yes, look back often.

I would not go out without a compass.

Use wands if weather looks iffy. Every rope length might be excessive. I place one at turns and cross two above crevasse crossings.

Compass and good topo map are essential. I don't take bearings on every turn but I do look back and get a feel for where the route down will go and get general compass bearings once in awhile.

One person I know marks his wands, 1 ,2 ,3 and takes bearings at key points.

[billbob]

Key Words- "On a glacier..." Actions taken may depend on whether crevasse falls are a real possibility. Assuming you are talking about a full-on white-out as described above, where visibility is restricted to the end of your ice axe and compounded by terrain, wind, ice, snow, etc., and where crevasse falls exist, you are in a worst-case scenario. Given the challenges of crevasse rescue in good weather, imagine how you might do it in the severe shit and then think hard about the chances of surviving the shit storm by sitting it out vs. risking your life navigating around the man-eaters.

 

 

 

[mountainmatt]

Waypoints are a great way to get around, but as mentioned above, it does you no good if the batteries die on the GPS or if you are not coming back the same direction. Another way to go about it is to use the GPS to pin point your location and then navigate by compass. This came in really handy two years ago when topping out Liberty Ridge in a white out. We were not positive where the descent to Emmons was and we could only see about 20-30 feet. We used the GPS to get our UTM coordinates, found where we were on the map, and proceeded to walk down with little problem.

[AllYouCanEat]

Dan, this is the worst time of year for crevasses (as you know). Wait until feb and the danger is much less. Right now when skiing on baker and rainier, you have to be careful until there is a good dump of snow. And whiteouts are a pain, but as you become more familiar with our terrain, you learn to get out of dodge when weather comes in. You have skis and can get down a slope quick. Plus, you are usually solo and on a day trip. Pick your days and you'll be fine. When the weather is crap, I stay off the glaciers. I'm not a fan of GPS and have never needed one. Mostly I use my local knowledge of the places I go since most are now pretty familiar places I've skied a lot at.

Edited November 10, 2008 by AllYouCanEat

[JayB]

I personally think it's useful to hedge your bets, learn all of the navigation techniques that you can, and employ them in whatever combination best suits the particular outing. IMO it makes sense to be overprepared and to have a fall-back method or two until you develop a sense of what you personally need to use, and/or what works best for you.

 

You may end up not using a GPS unit, but many of them come in with built in altimeters, and also allow you to enter the GPS coordinates for a series of key points on the mountain while you are sitting at your computer. It only takes a few minutes, and you can keep them there for as long as you keep the unit. I usually logged a few key landmarks in advance for the "what-ifs" and then plugged in waypoints on the way up. Since I also brought/used a map/compass, sometimes I'd draw a couple of arrows with bearings towards the next set of key landmarks on the map before heading out.

 

This may seem like overkill to some, but on most trips on the volcanoes, navigation was a team effort - and we always had more than one map, more than one compass, more than one altimeter/gps, and more than one person involved in all of the tasks that go along with navigating.

 

 

[ken4ord]

Waypoints are a great way to get around, but as mentioned above, it does you no good if the batteries die on the GPS or if you are not coming back the same direction. Another way to go about it is to use the GPS to pin point your location and then navigate by compass. This came in really handy two years ago when topping out Liberty Ridge in a white out. We were not positive where the descent to Emmons was and we could only see about 20-30 feet. We used the GPS to get our UTM coordinates, found where we were on the map, and proceeded to walk down with little problem.

 

Same exact thing happened to me and my partner. My partner had everything GPS, Compass altimeter and some waypoints for the descent. Even then it was still difficult to navigate couldn't tell if we were on flat ground or slope and at time could barely see a few feet in front, the wind was blowing hard which made it difficult to walk and communicate. Compounded with exhaustion and fading light we found it better to dig in for the night. At that point if we would have had a crevasse fall it would have been very difficult and serious extraction with our state of exhaustion, it was muuch safer to stay put.

 

Now if this would have happened under different circumstance then, like at the beginning of the climb it would have been much easier to keep going with all that gear that we had. So basically your decission should be dictated by the situation that you are in and what you are equipped with. I might not carry any navigation equipment with me but I have been prepared for whatever the mountain dishes out to me.

[sweatinoutliquor]

1. Download google earth on your computer.

2. Use the placemark tool to establish a series of points along your route. Name them fun names like "camp" and "bergshrund crossing"

3. Buy a garmin

4. Google "DNR Garmin" and download the free software from the minnesota department of natural resources.

5. Run the software, which automatically pulls the points from google earth onto your garmin and stores them as waypoints.

6. When you start your trip, reference a couple of the points (for example, "bar" and "beer stash point") you made to make sure they are indeed on this continent.

 

Anyway, I've never done this on a climbing trip, and no, it's not going to help you in a nasty crevasse field (well, maybe it will), but for general navigation it's pretty cool. I've used this for work (forestry) and am almost alarmed by how accurate it can be.

[mike1]

Hone your map and compass skills and you wont need the GPS unit. Plan your route and retreats in advance. Mark the azimuths and distances on the map for reference. Practice, practice, practice. Buy a good altimeter and make some wands. I stick reflective tape around the tops of my wands above some bright colored duct tape (survey ribbon can deteriorate in high winds). The biggest problem with wands? They get left behind, so throw them in the rig and decide at the TH. Listen to the weather station and check in with the Avy and Mountain Weather page to try and identify weather trends. Learn to read the weather from the sky, barometer, and temp trends.

[Frikadeller]

on mt hood, you can navigate in a white out on most routes solely w/ an altimeter

 

 

 

That only works when you're really familiar with the mountain.

 

 

Edited November 16, 2008 by Frikadeller