Climber dies in storm on Rainier, lessons learned

[trad_guy]

Feck, sprayer, Posts: 8407

Loc: Seattle, WA

 

"I started climbing in the 70s and I learned then that you have to be aware that you are going places where you can't call for help. That is what you have to prepare for.

 

Today we have a lot of fancy pants devices that we can use, but that doesn't mean that things are different. You still need to be prepared to go climbing knowing that you can't pick up your cell phone and dial 911.

 

I was down on the northeast side of Rainier this last weekend. Guess what There was no cell phone reception.

 

Go ahead and post links to your stupid website. I ain't clicking on them, and I would urge everybody else reading this to do the same. You obviously don't know what the fuck you're talking about."

 

Hey Feck, you have so many quick posts (8,407) you just don't have time to read!

 

Hey Feck, just how do you "prepare"?

 

AND, FECK, WHAT WERE YOU DOING WITH A CELL PHONE ON THE NORTH EAST SIDE OF RAINIER?

--trad_guy

 

 

[Hugh Conway]

AND, FECK, WHAT WERE YOU DOING WITH A CELL PHONE ON THE NORTH EAST SIDE OF RAINIER?

--trad_guy

 

He was fucking your mother.

[Choada_Boy]

AND, FECK, WHAT WERE YOU DOING WITH A CELL PHONE ON THE NORTH EAST SIDE OF RAINIER?

--trad_guy

 

He was fucking your mother.

 

T-Minus Spray in 5...4...3...2...

[olyclimber]

While its healthy to have more than one source of analysis on Accidents in North American Mountaineering, i prefer sources that try to interview the actual participants, rather than relying on 3rd hand accounts.

 

15881 posts bitch.

[AlpineK]

 

Hey Feck, just how do you "prepare"?

 

AND, FECK, WHAT WERE YOU DOING WITH A CELL PHONE ON THE NORTH EAST SIDE OF RAINIER?

--trad_guy

 

 

Once again dipshit that would be the northeast side of the mountain.

 

Climbers prepare for climbing by:

 

1 reading guidebooks by trusted authors.

 

2 Talking to people who have any firsthand experience with a route or routes in a region.

 

3 Checking the weather then either changing plans or packing accordingly.

 

4 Always be prepared to change plans and bail if either things don't look good or your gut tells you to bail. This can happen at any point on the climb.

 

That's some of the basics.

 

Electronic devices are no substitute for good judgement.

 

Even then accidents can happen. Everybody knows that climbing is dangerous, but climbers are willing to accept that risk (some of the time).

 

 

[Fairweather]

Feck, sprayer, Posts: 8407

Loc: Seattle, WA

 

...

 

Hey Feck, you have so many quick posts (8,407) you just don't have time to read!

 

Hey Feck, just how do you "prepare"?

 

 

--trad_guy

 

 

Uh, yea. Trad...umm...watch out for that...never mind. You'll figure it out.

Edited June 27, 2008 by Fairweather

[trad_guy]

porter, Registered: 09/19/03, Posts: 15,881

 

porter writes "While its healthy to have more than one source of analysis on Accidents in North American Mountaineering, i prefer sources that try to interview the actual participants, rather than relying 3rd hand accounts."

 

Hello again, porter-

I am not writing for the AAC on this event that occurred on Mt. Rainier. I do not feel I should contact the participants in this sad disaster, and I did not try to contact David Gottlieb, "chief climbing ranger and incident commander in the rescue". I felt the facts spoke for themselves in this case. The three climbers seemed to be totally unprepared and they left the security of Camp Muir into the teath of a forecast blizzard.

 

They did have an FRS radio, so they were not "purists". Perhaps they did not know that cell phones worked well in that particular "wilderness" location. (And a $100.00 GPS would have surely saved them.)

 

Perhaps David Gottlieb will contact me. There are some questions. I faulted him for not helping the public better understand how traditional mountaineering risks can be, in part, mitigated by - - -

--trad_guy

Edited June 27, 2008 by trad_guy

[Doug]

Hey Trad Guy, How come there is no link from the cascades mountaineers site to yours?

[trad_guy]

Doug asked, "Hey Trad Guy, How come there is no link from the cascades mountaineers site to yours?"

 

Doug, go to CascadesMountaineers.org, click on links and scroll down to Northwest & Regional, Climbing Clubs and there it is just down from the Mazamas!

 

Go to http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/Links.htm and find CascadesClimbers, featured since the site began. CascadesMountaineers is listed under Mountaineering Organizations.

 

There are more than 286 other selected links you will like.

 

I am conducting a FREE seminar on self belayed Rapelling for Cascades Mountaineers and others on Saturday:

http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/Prospectus_Rappel_06-08.htm Be sure to Reserve a place, Doug.

 

Thanks for your interest!

--trad_guy

 

 

[olyclimber]

its sounds a little like you're saying "i don't care about the facts, the newspapers will get it right". you seem to be on a mission to get someone. best of luck with your site, but i think the topic is already better covered by the people who actually respond and investigate these incidents professionally.

 

this website is not a place for you to form a witch hunt for someone you apparently disagree with. the registration terms specifically exclude defamatory content. now if you were posting this in spray as a joke, it might be different.

 

Thats cool you guys are doing FREE seminars. How much does it cost be be in the mounties? Sounds like such an interesting way to learn climbing.

[selkirk]

Can I bring my dog?

How does one repel with a dog anyhow?

[AlpineK]

Sorry folks trad guy will not be back to answer questions.

 

Having seen others and being personally involved in accidents involving death I will not put up with a disregard of reality and attacks on climbers stuck in a very unfortunate event.

[W]

The BASIC Responsibilities are just common sense. If I am climbing in Alaska I learned the basics long ago, (or I am going with a Guide?).

 

The problem is, I can tell right away from your attitude and tone, not to mention the content of your website, that your "seminars" and such are teaching rigid, unbending principles and formulas designed by and for neurotic control freaks who can't handle adversity and the unknown, as a means for dealing with dynamic, ever changing, and unpredictable situations in the mountains; a reliance on technology, and an assumption that rescue is just a phone call away. You are using a fear-based approach that seeks to control the uncontrollable and predict the unpredictable, and it discourages any inclination towards developing the most essential aspects of a safe mountaineering career: Resourcefulness, intuition, and flexibility for dealing with any situation.

 

You fail to explain how your philosophy bridges the gap for a person starting out climbing, who is totally out of their element and has no concept of how to survive in the outdoors, to get them to a point where they could, for example, climb in Alaska with "basics" they learned "long ago", but without the psychological safety net of phones and PLB's you harnessed them with from the outset. How do you propose that one reach that point of perspective as pertains to the prospect of rescue, or lack thereof, when your primary tenet of education involves being prepared to summon help? Your methods more or less ensure a student will either never venture beyond their backyard to truly remote areas, or will otherwise foster a lifelong dependency on guides and authority figures to show them the way.

 

 

A problem is that the Sheriff just says BE PRPARED! but does not give a person new to the Pacific North West, any idea of how to be prepared.

 

Who is your target audience, then? Weekend warriors with their families, who pile out of their Astro Van at Paradise and look at Rainier, think it's closer than it is, and decide to "hike up it"? Or someone who is earnest about learning about mountaineering and developing skills they can effectively use? No one in the latter group with an ounce of sense is ever going to consult the Sheriff, or listen to sound bites on news reports from rangers and reporters for gathering information about mountaineering.

 

W, have you read our mission?

THE MISSION of TraditionalMountaineering.org

 

I've read your mission. That combined with your above promotion of your site and your free seminars and such leads me to ask a question that I would think would be on the mind of any Certified Mountain Guide who has put in countless hours and dollars towards training in their profession: Who are you and what are your qualifications for teaching wilderness survival and mountaineering skills? Your boasting of "free ADVANCED mountaineering seminars" to me kind of reeks of "why bother paying a guide service when you can get free instruction from me?". Over the years I've encountered a number of what purport to pass as "Climbing Clubs" that are in reality a bunch of totally clueless neophytes being led around by a single, demagogue-like leader with no bonafide training to his credit, who claims to know everything about everything, and whose teachings are not open to question or discussion, and is almost cult like in organization.

 

 

Hello again, porter-

I am not writing for the AAC on this event that occurred on Mt. Rainier. I do not feel I should contact the participants in this sad disaster, and I did not try to contact David Gottlieb, "chief climbing ranger and incident commander in the rescue". I felt the facts spoke for themselves in this case.

 

Perhaps David Gottlieb will contact me. There are some questions. I faulted him for not helping the public better understand how traditional mountaineering risks can be, in part, mitigated by - - -

--trad_guy

 

 

I've already said it- analysis of accidents is carefully and tactfully done in the AAJ reports, not for reporters in the parking lot right after the accident. It's called sensitivity and diplomacy. Further, you clearly do not know anything about David or the workings of his job. Alerting climbers to potential risks defines 80% of the climbing ranger's daily routine, and out of a crew of gregarious and talented rangers, David has always been one of the best at communicating with the climbing public. So if you are going to point the finger at someone publicly, you damn well better do your homework first. You are treading on thin ice with such ill-informed public accusations.

 

 

The three climbers seemed to be totally unprepared and they left the security of Camp Muir into the teath of a forecast blizzard.

 

They did have an FRS radio, so they were not "purists". Perhaps they did not know that cell phones worked well in that particular "wilderness" location. (And a $100.00 GPS would have surely saved them.)

 

Hindsight observation is not even 20/20 in this situation. Among other things, navigating down terrain like that in a whiteout, even with a GPS, is not without risks (cornices, crevasses, avalanche slopes, etc.), and at night might have been impossible. Your speculation and agenda-based criticism, especially in such an unsolicited forum, is highly disrespectful and in extremely poor taste.

 

There is a big difference between attitudes like yours, and those of what I consider sensible climbers; both might carry a cell phone and/or GPS, but the former considers them a tool of last resort, while you consider them a primary essential of first resort. It all goes downhill from there.

 

Have a nice day.

 

 

[Rad]

perhaps this thread should move 2 spray so the survivors, family, and friends don't stumble on this garbage...

[sobo]

perhaps this thread should move 2 spray so the survivors, family, and friends don't stumble on this garbage...

I would have to agree.

[Denizen]

Every time you choose to use a cell phone to call for help you are also putting the lives of your rescuers in potential risk.

[Off_White]

Yeah, spray it is.

[faster_than_you]

So what is in the water down in Oregon?

[tvashtarkatena]

I'm glad to see CC has installed an effective bug light for the inevitable botflies who seem to buzz around every alpine fatality. They're fixation with tragedy is disturbing enough, their need to publicly denigrate the victims under the guise of 'being helpful' is beyond explanation.

[wayne]

Maybe people assume that since we a disrespectful and rowdy bunch, we wont have the proper respect for preparing for conditions and the respect for fallen comrades? One will find though, this is generally not the case.

[jjd]

hey tradguy, do you have any information on the best techniques for jerking off on the summit or perhaps wanking it on a steep route while soloing in the "north west?"

[akhalteke]

hey tradguy, do you have any information on the best techniques for jerking off on the summit or perhaps wanking it on a steep route while soloing in the "north west?"

 

I did send my g/f to his seminar on how to give head on a portaledge. Best $32 I ever spent.

[jjd]

[Choada_Boy]

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[KaskadskyjKozak]

 

tradguy can lick sack