Patagucci Down Sweater??

[Blake]

Why is this garment so popular? Every third person walking around town is wearing one!

 

http://www.patagonia.com/web/us/product/product_focus.jsp?OPTION=PRODUCT_FOCUS_DISPLAY_HANDLER&style_color=84673-133&patcatcode=MAIN_FA07_US.CLOTHING_GEAR.MENS.JACKETS.DOWN/SYNTHETIC

 

 

 

It weighs 13 ounces and is extremely thin compared to a down jacket you can get from Mtn Hardware or Western Mountaineering, Feathered Friends, etc which would have much more loft and be just a few ounces heavier.

 

My understanding is that once you factor in the necessary 'fixed' costs (in weight) of shell fabric and a zipper, adding more insulation will keep you a whole lot warmer without adding much more weight, so why get a down jacket that is designed to create such little loft. (and thereby trap such little warm air)

 

If the whole idea is to keep you warm, why carry around the weight of that zipper and shell material if you don't put in more of the lofting feathers and actually increase its utility? maybe one of the gear gurus from Feathered Friends can comment...

 

I know Patagonia sells lots of item as "fashion pieces" but this is being marketed as coat with actual utility and appeal to climbers. To those folks who have got one, is it for Fashion or Function? Do you wearing it while you are being active, or throw it on at belays etc like a traditional puffy coat?

 

[Choada_Boy]

Maybe...no, this couldn't be...but maybe...just maybe...it's a fashion statement?

[Couloir]

It weighs 13 ounces and is extremely thin compared to a down jacket you can get from Mtn Hardware or Western Mountaineering, Feathered Friends, etc which would have much more loft and be just a few ounces heavier.

 

Good point. When I first saw this thing I knew it was going to be much more about fashion than it was about function.

[Ishmael]

Well, how do they look????

[olyclimber]

MARVELOUS, obviously.

[suckbm]

Ive got one and its good for wearing while climbing in cold conditions 0-15 F and is a good belay throw on for the 20-35F temps. It doesnt have the warmth that a two pound belay jacket might but often times, especially around here you dont need all of that.

[G-spotter]

you know you're on Robson Street when you see chix wearing a down knee-length coat in pouring rain

[ScottP]

The reason for the popularity of this super-compressible Down Sweater is simple: its minimal weight and excellent warmth. The new shell fabric does more than look sharp; it’s tear-resistant, windproof and water-repellent, and made from 50% recycled polyester. It includes top-quality European goose down, a quilted-through construction, lightweight coiled zippers throughout and a stretch-mesh interior chest pocket that doubles as a zippered stuff sack, two zippered hand pockets and a regular fit.

[OlympicMtnBoy]

I'd agree with Blake, in a warmth/weight analysis, this is no where near optimal. Just because they use ultralight fancy fabric, and ultralight insulation, does not mean the whole thing is functionally as light as you can get. You could add a few more oz of down and get a nice much loftier jacket. Actually, I just looked at the Western Mountaineering flite jacket. It's 10.5 oz and considerably loftier (http://www.westernmountaineering.com/index.cfm?section=Products&page=Jackets%20%26%20Vests&viewpost=2&ContentId=55). Thus the main purpose for this particular item is fashion, not light weight warmth. This should have been obvious from the uselessly tiny and heavy down compartments in the first place.

[Blake]

In Econom-ese for the alpinist:

 

Weight = cost

Loft/warmth = benefit

 

Zippers and fabric are a fixed costs that all users must "pay" and alone, offer negligible benefit.

 

When you start making the jacket, you need fabric and a zipper.... high fixed cost with little benefit.

 

Then you start filling in your jacket with feathers, very high benefit with miniscule marginal cost.

 

So why stop adding feathers (from a functionality perspective) when you can finally do so at a point where

Marginal Benefits >> Marginal Costs?

 

It's like spending an hour sorting your gear, cleaning your cams, racking up, flaking out the rope, and then once the groundwork is laid, just climbing one pitch.

[billcoe]

Don't tell Joseph these are schite, he just bought one to take to Red Rocks cause he thought it was a better alternative than freezing near to death like last time. I'm sure there was a reason he wanted the lighter one.

[featheredfriends]

maybe one of the gear gurus from Feathered Friends can comment...

 

Blake, we are at a loss to explain the recent market fascination with snazzy lightweight down jackets such as these. We here at FF have been carrying them in the retail store for a few years. Last year we sold out of the women's version in no time, the men's version took a little longer. Also popular these days are the Mont Bell UL Inner Down Jackets, which are about as light, but not quite as sexy at the Patagonias.

 

I agree with your observation that for a minimal marginal weight increase (adding more down) your return of a substantially warmer jacket is well worth it. Our own Hyperion Jacket, made with Schoeller NanoSphere fabric, weighs a scant 11 ounces AND has way more water resistance than either the Mont Bell or the Patagonia jackets. Not to mention the warmer, more water resistant FF jacket costs exactly the same as the Asian made Patagonia... I can't explain that one either. We must not be charging enough.

 

Still, there seems to be some inexplicable perception that a less lofty jacket is somehow going to be a superior choice. Some people just don't want a jacket as warm as our Hyperion. When you enter the realm of rationalizing about 1 or 2 ounces in a $200 down jacket, you need to look at yourself in the mirror (or on the scale) and ask how much weight you can lose for free. Other than the seemingly endless obsession over weight savings, fashion preference and warmth preference are the only other explanations I can offer for the popularity of these jackets. This relates to the circular hypothetical syllogism that

 

1. If you're looking good, you're feeling good

2. If you're feeling good, you're climbing good

3. If you're climbing good, you're looking good

 

In response ScottP's comment about the Patagonia's fabric being abrasion resistant, I beg to differ. Since when was 22 denier fabric abrasion resistant? Resistant, perhaps, to abrasion against a fluffy bunny rabbit. You know the fabric is not going to be tough when you can actually SEE the individual down clusters through the material, as you can with the Patagonia Down Sweater.

 

Someday, who knows when, the pendulum will swing too far in the "ultralight" direction, and a lot of people will start getting mad that the expensive piece of gear they bought a little while ago didn't meet their durability expectations. The market will then correct itself, and eventually consumers will make purchasing decisions with more consideration given to durability. There is an obvious trajectory that we see in the store all the time:

 

1. Customer is just getting into activity. Customer buys introductory level piece of gear.

2. Customer gets better at activity, refines gear systems, and buys ultralight piece of gear.

3. Customer comes back, disappointed with ultralight gear's durability, and buys replacement that is slightly heavier and more durable.

 

Boots, backpacks, and clothing are the main areas in which we see this happen.

[hafilax]

It sounds like the design goals were small compressed package and moderate warmth. By your logic all down jackets should be made for -40. The tight baffling probably distributes the down better given the low fill weight. The price is Patagonia.

 

The popularity has everything to do with fashion although many people seem to use them ice climbing.

[tvashtarkatena]

I don't see what the big mystery is here.

 

I just bought a Montbell U.L. inner jacket. Why? At only 7 oz, it's lighter and warmer than even my lightest softshell, which it replaces during stable, warmer weather. It's awful nice to be able to go out with basically a couple of silk weight Ts, biking arms, and the Montbell during a nice summer high pressure. Yes, there is an 'overhead' with the fabric, but Montbell uses 800 fill down; pretty much the best you can get. It also makes a nice wind layer during the morning/eve for the conditions just mentioned. It's also a great belay jacket; so compact you can hang it on your harness. The FF garments are just a bit too bulky for that. During slightly cooler or more changeable weather, I can throw the Montbell in with my softshell, which I'm more likely to use while moving. If it gets colder still, I go with my FF down jacket, which is much warmer but weighs about a pound. Another advantage to the Montbell: if we get a REAL COLD snap, it can supplement my FF down jacket.

 

As for why people wear these down sweaters around town, I can only guess that they, particularly women, prefer not to look like the Michelin man (as with puffier garments). In addition, these minimalist down garments are so light you can't even feel you've got it on. I suspect people find that warmth without bulk feeling appealing.

 

The Montbell I just purchased fits like a grocery bag. Slightly too baggy in the waist and too tight in the chest. It's for utility, not fashion IMO, so I don't care that much (plus it was damn cheap on sale). It's also delicate; there are other, less pricey jackets I can beat on around town. Perhaps the Patagucci offering is stylish enough to be appealing for urban use. But frankly, who the hell can afford Patagucci?

Edited December 4, 2007 by tvashtarkatena

[ClimbingPanther]

Resistant, perhaps, to abrasion against a fluffy bunny rabbit.

[ScottP]

In response ScottP's comment about the Patagonia's fabric being abrasion resistant, I beg to differ. Since when was 22 denier fabric abrasion resistant? Resistant, perhaps, to abrasion against a fluffy bunny rabbit. You know the fabric is not going to be tough when you can actually SEE the individual down clusters through the material, as you can with the Patagonia Down Sweater.

 

Yo, knucklehead! My post was kyped nearly verbatim from the "Patagonia Down Sweater MORE INFO" page. Why? Because it seems a piece of clothing that would fit nicely into a Project Runway episode.

 

You, as an agent of all things retail, should have recognized the prose, though the subtlety of the sarcasm was apparently lost.

 

 

[layton]

I caught your post Scott. I saw the scathing irony.

[swaterfall]

For sure the it's popularity is due to peoples' sense of fashion and pataguc's branding but if you use something like this combined with a good base layer, a windshirt and waterproof layer (marmot precip) you've got a system for all except the coldest conditions. When it gets real cold just add a belay jacket or down parka.

 

My system is pretty much just like this but I am not a fan of softshell jackets at all. They're way too heavy and way too prone to soaking through in rain and wet snow. Even the term sofshell is BS they should be called hardfleece because they offer no performance improvement over a fleece jacket with a windstopper membrane. Schoeller is great for pants but sux for the upper body IMO.

 

Talking about fashion statements; how many poseurs are running around Seattle in their $300 softshells.

 

 

[Dechristo]

But frankly, who the hell can afford Patagucci?

 

I buy 'em for toilet paper.

[tvashtarkatena]

I snagged a Lowe Alpine softshell for about $65 down at that discount outdoor place in PTown and it is the shiz for colder conditions. Wicks like a mofo; repels wet snow, dries quick, breaths, cuts the wind, not too hot when the sun comes out. Amazing stuff. Put that sucker on with some schoeller pants and life is good. I'm completely sold on softshell fabrics. Fuck wearing plastic bags. Maybe you just got the wrong stuff.

 

As for Feathered Friends; sounds like they just don't understand the sweater segment of the down garment market. When shopping for one, I found that they didn't have a competitive offering, price or weight wise. Maybe someday the customers they compete for will 'smarten up', but somehow I don't think that's where the problem lies.

Edited December 4, 2007 by tvashtarkatena

[Hugh Conway]

I sense a message board epiphany! It sounds like a majority of the gear purchasers are not using it all the time for cutting edge activities!

[OlympicMtnBoy]

 

WHEEEEW WHEEEEW WHEEEEEW WHEEEEEEEW (the fashion police siren)

 

THAT"S IT FOLKS, MOVE ALONG

 

THERE IS NOTHING TO SEE HERE

 

THERE IS NO DOWN SWEATER

 

IF THERE WERE A PATAGUCCI DOWN SWEATER (which there isn't)

 

NONE OF YOU WOULD BE COOL ENOUGH TO WEAR IT

 

PLEASE MOVE ALONG NOW AND FORGET ANYTHING YOU IMAGINED YOU SAW

 

--- end of fashion police public service announcement ---

[Sherri]

THERE IS NO DOWN SWEATER

 

IF THERE WERE A PATAGUCCI DOWN SWEATER (which there isn't)

 

NONE OF YOU WOULD BE COOL ENOUGH TO WEAR IT

 

--- end of fashion police public service announcement ---

 

But, if there were one--just saying--would wearing it MAKE me cool?

This could be the breakthrough I've been looking for.

 

 

[Blake]

As for Feathered Friends; sounds like they just don't understand the sweater segment of the down garment market. Maybe someday the customers they compete for will 'smarten up', but somehow I don't think that's where the problem lies.

 

The fact that they sold out of all the ones in stock shows just how much trouble they are having competing for customers.

Right...

 

Down Sweaters, for those times when you want to pay $200 to be "almost warm"!

 

Down/insulating jackets are primarily worn when you are at rest, and in need of some quick (usually temporary) insulation. I can never remember a single instance where I was too hot standing around in a down jacket (unzipped?), and too cold without it on.

 

I'd love to be one of these people who (apparently) stand around at cold winter belays or frosty alpine mornings and suddenly get overheated due to a few minutes of sedentary down jacket wearing. However, in lieu of such a superhuman metabolism I'll take an insulating coat that weighs 3 ounces more and can keep someone much warmer or warm them much faster.

 

Better a warm 'michelin-man' than a cold fashionisto.

 

[tthirloway]

Why is there so much discussion about other people's clothes?

 

I hate myself for reading this whole thing.