Design input on new sleeping bag

[featheredfriends]

Feathered Friends is developing a new sleeping bag. I would like to hear ideas and feedback from the CC community on the design of this bag. First off, take the spray elsewhere. This is a sincere inquiry, and while the topic may seem ripe for smartass commentary, I would appreciate it if we stick to the subject at hand. The main points I would like to hear about are

 

1. Is there enough demand for this bag to make it commercially viable. In other words, is this something you would consider buying?

2. Are there any features you would like to see added to this bag?

3. Are there any features you would like to see removed from this bag?

 

Please keep these questions in mind while reading about the bag, and focusing your replies on these general areas would be most helpful.

 

Design summary: This bag is intended to be a two-person, ultralight alpine bag. The design is totally new and not based on any existing Feathered Friends model. It is narrower than our existing two-person sleep systems, much lighter, and not as robust. This is a highly specialized bag to be used on multi-day alpine routes or through-hikes where weight savings is of the highest importance.

 

Target weight: 2.25 pounds

Dimensions: top secret. Just kidding, they are not finalized but this bag will be narrower than our current two-person sleep systems. The idea is to shape this bag so two medium sized climbers can just barely fit inside, side by side, lying on their backs.

Features:

- single piece fabric floor. No down in the bottom of the bag. Floor is made of water resistant, light weight fabric. Climbers either (a) cut their foam pads to size to fit inside the bag or (b) velcro their ground pads together and set the sleeping bag on top of them.

- integrated permanent down-filled hoods. These will be slightly lower volume hoods than we put on mummies since the shoulder girth of this bag is pretty slim.

- 360-degree filled lower foot section. The end-most down chamber of the bag (the one around your toes) is filled entirely with down throughout the circumference of the chamber. In other words, the single piece fabric floor stops short of the end of the bag by about 5-6 inches. The occupants get down all the way around their toes. Hooray for warm toes.

- Permanent collar with yoke. The collar is specially contoured to fill the space between the shoulders of the occupants. This reduces heat loss through the large opening at the top of the bag.

- No zippers. Both people have to wriggle in from the top.

- Total loft of about 4" will give this bag an estimated rating of about 0 degrees F. Obviously the fill can be adjusted depending on the application: more down for the Cassin Ridge, less for the Pickets.

- Drawcord at the collar

- Snaps that hold the yoke collar in place and also allow the occupants to snap the shell of the bag to the floor at the shoulder. Kind of hard to describe in words, but hopefully a vivid imagination will envision it.

 

There are some other design elements to this bag, but I either don't want to discuss them or they are not of great importance.

 

This bag is going to be a snug fit for two people, and using it may involve a bit of spooning. The idea is to maximize the efficiency of two bodies inside the bag while reducing the heat loss normally associated with this general design. The collar and foot sections are essential to this goal. Obviously this bag is highly specialized. The market for a design like this is the hard man or woman who has a high tolerance for being in close confines with a stinky climbing partner on route if it means they saved 2 pounds over taking two sleeping bags.

 

So what do you think?

 

Is this something you would use?

Is a bag like this commercially viable?

How much would you pay for something like this?

What features sound good?

What features sound bad?

What changes do you suggest?

 

Thanks.

 

FF

[Mr_Phil]

No use for me. I flop around like a fish at night.

[Hoosierdaddy]

- integrated permanent down-filled hoods. These will be slightly lower volume hoods than we put on mummies since the shoulder girth of this bag is pretty slim.

I think this may be problematic. Expecting both people to stay on their backs in order to stay inside the hoods throughout the night isn't realistic. There has to be some movement allowed if you expect them to spoon. Maybe a detachable down-filled hood?

 

- Permanent collar with yoke. The collar is specially contoured to fill the space between the shoulders of the occupants. This reduces heat loss through the large opening at the top of the bag.

Now this I like! Great idea!

 

With some tweaking and if the price is right, yeah I would probably buy it.

[Mark_Husbands]

I have often thought such a thing would be useful but would be hard pressed to pony up for it. in a partnership, who pays for it? tragedy of the commons. let's not even talk about the free rider problem.

[DanO]

Hello,

Me and my wife are probally of the few partners who could

actually use such a system.

 

We have in the past used a single 20 degree down (campmor brand sleeping bag) single square sleeping bag for summer mountaineering. We used it as a blanket and ware all of

our clothes. Worked well for us as long not too cold.

Used it with single foam pads. Now we both have air matts,

mine from stephenson's her's from big agnes-we use these

now under the single square sleeping bag.

 

The future is air matts with insulation in them, or use

a foam pad of some sort in the bottom of the sleeping bag.

The down under you in a sleeping bag is a waste, of weight, money etc. I much prefer a air matt over a foam pad.

 

Here is how I would make the system your talking about. I

would make a square bag so that one person could use it.

Of course it would zip together as a normal sleeping bag.

Then I would make special sleeping pads most likly foam,

that could zip together and to the outside edges of the

square sleeping bag. This way you have min weight and max benifit. I would design it for summer

mountaineering and mild fall and spring useage.

Of course a second "top" or "bag" could be used

for colder conditions.

 

Under colder conditions so far me and my wife use two

single 0 degree bags, a stephenson's and a big agnes

both with air matts. I have a down filled air matt,

she has a sinthetic filled air matt, so we use our sit

pads under her air matt for more winter insulation under

her.

 

Dan

Edited February 18, 2007 by DanO

[DanO]

Hello,

After a little more thought, people like light weight,

comfort, and features and of course low cost. As a matter of

the real world something has to give, rarely can have it all.

If you must shell out the cash then you want at least low weight, features and a little comfort.

 

What would I want? I am of a rare few I bet but I find

it really hard to give up my air mattress neither my wife, of

course we are not of the hard woman or hard man type, doing the

hard routes, but in reality of all the hikers or climbers how

many fit this mold? Once you go to a insulated air matt it can

be difficult to go back.

 

We talked about either getting another big agnes or another

stephenson's and zipping them together, not the lightest

but practical.

 

I can imagine a possible modular system where components can

be bought and fit together as needed. How? buy a single bag with

matt, air or foam. Later on get a oposite sex partner or hard

person partner add to your system. buy another pad with down

cloth and surround material. Buy a single top for both pads. Also

can buy single "bags" for both pads. could be so modular to have

two tops. So on, so on. I can see it my mind but hard to discribe

I think you can get it. Lots of features, mabey not the lightest

but fairly light.

 

Dan

[BillA]

Sounds like with a no zip entry you would need to be able to use a pee bottle, as getting up in the middle of the night would be problematic to say the least. Therefore it would maybe need to have a little more girth to facilitate one person rolling over and not peeing all over their partner? Something to think about...

[Dechristo]

first, you cut a hole in a bag...

[olyclimber]

Is this something you would use?

Probably not, but I'm sure there are those out there that would.

 

Is a bag like this commercially viable?

Not unless on extremely limited runs.

 

How much would you pay for something like this?

I'm not sure, since i'm not sure i would buy it in the first place.

 

What features sound good?

Extremely light weight, sleeps two, feathered friends goodness.

 

What features sound bad?

The bag in general sounds perfect for a hard people of the world who get written up in Alpinist all the time. The Colin Haleys of the world. Unfortunately for this concept, I don't think there are a lot of people out there that want a route so bad they are ready to give up the sanctity of their own sleeping bag for the sake of saving some weight and share it with someone else. Those people are truly inspirational, but I think also think few and far between. It might be a great bag to sell to couples looking to shave pounds to hike the PCT or something, but I don't know that market.

 

What changes do you suggest?

I would design and manufacture a short run for the people (and a few others) that would buy it. Otherwise just offer them as a custom order.

 

hope this opinion helps.

[OlympicMtnBoy]

Yeah, probably not something I would pony up for (although I'm generally cheap), but something I would possibly use given the right route and partner. I think the attached hood is key,and something the differentiates it from some of the other quilt style bags out there. You don't get to twist and tun as much as you would in your own bag anyways, and being able to minimize heat loss with a continuous barrier on the bottom of the bag is great.

 

Some thread drift now, here is what I would really like to see in a new FF bag, and might actually buy (although not at the custom rate). I really want one of these: Montbell UL Down Hugger #3 (ie: ~1lb 30 degree bag), with a real neck baffle, plus zip up or drawcord closed arm holes and a foot hole similar to your rock wren, or the Exped Wallcreeper. Maybe you can incorporate the stretch stuff like montbell too, but I haven't actually tried it. Basically a super light Rock Wren with a more tapered shape and a neck baffle. I like the idea, but no one that makes that sort of bag makes it light enough, shaped well enough to take full advantage of the insulation. And I don't understand why neck draft collars get dropped in warmer sleeping bags, it seems like a big warmth improvement for a small amount of weight.

 

I would use it for summer mountaineering and nice weather spring/fall trips where keeping the pack light (and SMALL) is important.

 

Ok, that's enough for my rant. :-)

[ericb]

Hear's my initial reaction....I'd echo what others have said about commercial viability...I think there is a very small market for this, and the class of hardman alpinists that might use a sleep system like this for assumed winter climbs would also likely be wanting to shave weight by sleeping in their parkas. That said, the zero degree rating might be overkill.

[ketch]

Eric brings a good point about the parka bit. I would modify it a little.

 

I changed afew years back to a bag that was cut a little looser. That way I could use it a warmer temps and in the cold I had room to wear the puffy to bed. I love that system and have since sold my cold weather bag as it never saw any use.

 

For your potential new unit I wouldn't chase it down but would be willing to buy it if I changed styles. Definatley I would want it loose enough that we could extend the rating with extra clothes. Which includes the previous pee bottle comment.

[featheredfriends]

Thanks for the feedback, folks, there are some interesting observations and comments to consider. Keep them coming, we appreciate it.

[darstog]

I've thought a fair amount about the double-bag lately. Your idea sounds pretty savvy, but I'd echo the commercial viability and the degree-rating overkill concerns of others.

 

1. Is there enough demand for this bag to make it commercially viable. In other words, is this something you would consider buying?

 

I'd say not many people out there would be willing to buy this bag. I've tried to talk my main climbing partner into the idea of a double bag and he thinks I'm nuts. Secondary partners have been astounded by my genius, however. I would consider buying this, but not as a 0-degree bag.

 

2. Are there any features you would like to see added to this bag?

 

The aforementioned stretch-hugger idea would be good, licensing the patent from Montbell might not be viable. The idea for the bag might go from good to amazing if you could toss an eVENT shell on the bag (so that you could possibly leave a shelter at home and bring maybe a tarp to throw over your head in case of rain--and what about welding seams, is FF going to go with this tech?). What about independent controls on the neck baffle, so that if you're hot and your buddy is comfortable, you could open your side of the entry a little ways?

 

3. Are there any features you would like to see removed from this bag?

 

I think having the bag as a zero would be way overkill. I don't do a whole ton of winter stuff, but the coldest bag I own is a 15 because if it's going to be that cold, I'm already carrying a ton of layers. Why not make the bag uber-light, have one model that's like a 30 degree (how light can you make that--maybe that would have more appeal).

 

One of the issues I'd have with this is the fact that it's (don't get too offended, I'm about to order a Volant jacket) a down bag. A double bag rated for cold weather without zippers seems like it might turn into a sweatbox. It would be less than ideal to be carrying a double bag on a multi-day trip and not be able to dry it out. One more reason to make it like a 30 degree bag. If somebody gets hot, take off a layer. Then again, I'm not doing anything in the Alaska range anytime this life.

 

How much would I pay for this?

If the snowbunting (FF 0-degree, full-featured) in epic goes for $469 and you gotta think this would be at least another 50% more expensive (pulled that number out of a hat), then you're looking at around $700. Which goes, again, to commercial viability. With all the money in the world (and a sponsorship), would I pay $700 for a bag I may use only a couple of times?

[montypiton]

I climbed the Cassin Ridge in 1981 with a girlfriend, and we could have used this product on that trip. We improvised by zipping a Snowlion synthetic bag on the bottom to a Holubar Royalight (best down in the world in those days) on top. It worked perfectly. Thing is, in a forty-year climbing career, that's only once that I would have used this. Commercially viable? - unlikely, I suspect, but possibly on a custom basis...

Edited February 20, 2007 by montypiton

[DanO]

Market?

 

Here is what me and my wife would strongly consider to buy

real soon if it was on the market. I have a stephenson's she

the big agnes. If they made a modular system so that we could

take the down tops off of both and put on a single top we would buy it.

 

Currently only my stephenson's has the correct design to

do this. The only pause is the cost of the stephenson's system,

well worth the money but hard to scrape up the cash. Buy another

stephenson's and put on a single top over both bottom pads. That would be a nice system. Also still have two single bags.

 

How much market for such a modular bag system? Don't know.

 

Dan

[chris]

FF-

I've been wishing for a Vireo-style bag big enough for two people. As someone mentioned above, I sleep in my clothes on winter/alpine routes, and I factor that in to my sleep system needs. So I'd ask for no zippers, snaps, hoods, or collars. If you're planning on building it with down only on the top, then I'd also ask for a sleeve on the floor to hold a foam pad - and while you're at it, sell it with a foam pad already pre-cut to fit the sleeve. Thanks

[OlympicMtnBoy]

And of course, don't forget your competitor product. While it's not exactly the same (straps on the floor instead of nylon, and no hood, it still probably takes a portion of your already small market share. Nunatak Dual Arc Alpinist $500-$600, ~2 lbs, 20 degrees, and available with Epic. Not to discourage any healthy competition though of course. ;-)

[DirtyHarry]

Sounds like a cool bag. You should call it the Brokeback Mountain.

[dbconlin]

As alluded to in previous posts, the hardpeople who would actually use a bag like this are few and far between, or are couples. Reading advice from some of these people indicates that they almost invariably use synthetic insulation in their sleeping systems. Also, they choose bags with less extreme temp ratings. This bag may appeal however to mountaineering couples and with less insulation to through-hiking couples.

[crackers]

 

Is this something you would use?

 

No. As at least some of you know, I'm 6'5", and it seems like I couldn't use it according to your design specs. Otherwise, yes, I would consider this useful, especially if a mod was possible...

 

Is a bag like this commercially viable?

 

Not really, with the emphasis on commercially viable. There are a quite a few people interested in far out gear, but you'll have to keep the things in stock etcetera. The problem is that the people who are most likely to use it size wise(Colin, Kelly Cordes, Maxime Turgeon et al) are also most likely to get / deserve a prodeal or sponsorship. There are other markets.

 

How much would you pay for something like this?

 

At most $300. It sounds like its a consumable. If the bottom sheet is replaceable, then up to $500.

 

What features sound good?

 

The neck gaiter damn thing. The hoods.

The scrunchy idea sounds good. Also a partial zipper on each side or in the middle. The footbox.

 

What features sound bad?

 

A lack of a zip sounds real bad.

 

What changes do you suggest?

 

A zip. Epic or eVent. Replaceable bottom sheet.

I would like to be able to pull off one or both of the hoods and use it for summer camping / cragging. If it was a bit convertible, the market would be substantially larger.

 

My partner made a couple of things like this for another market using synthetic insulation, and you could probably sell a bunch in that market.

[crackers]

I realized that due to my brain medication that reduces my intelligence and calls into question my sanity, I forgot to mention any of the legion of reasons I think a zip is a good idea:

 

* melting snow.

* cooking.

* random anchor quality assurance checks.

* incredibly smelly fart ventilation.

* if a zip is in the middle, you can't blame me for stealing all the loft.

 

etcetera

 

 

[hydroman]

Like everyone has said before, you are targeting a very small audience with this bag. If you want to make it commercially viable I think you really need to make it very attractive to thru-hikers. That being said, you must keep in mind that while some hard core climbers may put up with no frills for a few nights to a week on a hard route, thru-hikers are going to be using these things for 6 months straight. Some hikers will want the lightest thing possible and won’t care about a zipper but I think it really needs to be at least an option. Losing sleep for 6 months because your significant other has to wriggle out of the bag once or twice a night sounds like hell. A couple of different widths would be nice as well so that bigger folks can roll around and not be waking each other up every time. The hoods need to be workable for people who roll from side to side during the night. For thru-hikers, 0 is too warm. They would be shooting more for a 20-25. But as you said the down fill can be adjusted.

 

I've thru-hiked various long trails and have also made a synthetic version of this bag for a 2000 PCT hike. I really liked using the system to save weight. Personally, I would not consider buying one without a zipper. I also found when designing and experimenting that getting the correct shape on the top and yoke is key. Just a straight across cut and a rectangular yoke don't work very well. It needs to be well contoured to fit snugly around the shoulders/neck.

 

I've been trying to get around to making a down version of this bag just like you are proposing (but with zippers). Alas I never seem to have the time. If you make one I'll likely buy it, but for backpacking. For me though it's got to have zippers and it needs to be wide enough to be reasonably comfortable. I climb a lot but certainly not hard enough to warrant spooning with my partner. I typically just carry a 16 ounce WM Highlight for most of the season and deal with being a little cool some nights and pull out the 20 for winter.

 

How much would I pay? $400-450 Give or take. $500 tops. Otherwise I will just make it.

 

[selkirk]

As a side bar -

 

Has there been any discussion of modularizing a halfbag/parka/bottom sheet system? It seems like most people I know always have a parka with them, even if they're also taking a bag so there might be an option to optimize the 1/2 bag parka system a little bit.

 

Add in some sort of mating system (buttons or zippers) at the top of the bag and just inside and above the bottom of the parka to avoid the gap between them. Insulation only on the top of the half bag and footbox, with a replaceable bottom sheet. Make the 1/2 bag, parka shells, and bottom sheets out of eVent so that for a short duration trips a separate bivy bag isn't necessary. Then add an additional zip in bottom sheet that mates with the zippers on the parka to keep all the loft above you. It might be necessary to tweak the parka hood design as it would initially be facing the wrong way, but that could be modified with a detachable hood.

 

The double bag sounds like a useful product but only to a very very limited market.

[ken4ord]

1. Is there enough demand for this bag to make it commercially viable. In other words, is this something you would consider buying?

 

I am not sure if this would be commercially viable. It could be something that I would consider buying, but I guess I would like it to be a little more versitile.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2. Are there any features you would like to see added to this bag?

 

Zippers, I don't like the idea of having to slide into the bag. With my girlfriend we run at completely different temps in order for this to work for us I would have to be able to vent myself without chilling her out.

One thing I saw was a this zip in that was called the cutie pie or something like that, I liked the idea but it was heavy. Something I was thinking would be great is a bag that designed to take an insert so that it could be used as a single bag or as a 2 person bag. I like the idea of having no fill underside of the bag, so make the zip in no fill. Make the zip in have some sort of snaps to creat two openings like you suggested, can put hood or not in the zip in section. If you want light then no hoods, wear a hat to bed. The main bag agin to keep it light as a single no hood, also by not having the hood, hood that is front of one persons face when it is used as a double.

 

 

 

 

 

 

3. Are there any features you would like to see removed from this bag?

 

not really.

 

 

 

 

 

So what do you think?

 

Cool idea not much of a market, unless broaden it making it be able to be used as a single bag.

I like the idea of keeping insulation in the foot box area.

 

 

 

 

 

Is this something you would use?

 

Possibly

 

 

 

 

Is a bag like this commercially viable?

 

Probably not

 

 

 

 

 

How much would you pay for something like this?

 

Same a single bag in its current concept.

 

 

 

 

 

What features sound good?

What features sound bad?

 

Good two collars, Bad no zipper

 

 

 

 

 

What changes do you suggest?

 

Above