Don't die - double yourself up.

[MarkMcJizzy]

The leading supposition regarding the cause of Todd Skinner's death is the failure of his belay loop during a rappel. This may or may not prove to be true.

 

But john Sherman has reported the failure of a skinny sling under bodyweight.

 

People are quoting a finite use-life for metallic climbing gear.

 

My points are:

1) Consider a back-up for your belay loop.

2) Don't use anything old or questionable when a failure is serious

3) Toss your old shit, especially biners and slings

4) It is easy to use two biners on your belay - rappel

5) Be suspect of skinny slings, double yourself up when "daisying off" at hanging raps, etc

 

I do not believe that cams, nuts, and pins strength diminish with age, but that extreme use can cause failure.

[matt_warfield]

Belay loops are one of the strongest parts of the climbing system. I will bet that age and wear is the primary factor in any failure. Replace that harness regularly as part of overall attention to safety.

[chris]

The same ST discussion is taking place here:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=271445&msg=271974#msg271974

[Choada_Boy]

 

2) Don't use anything old or questionable when a failure is serious

 

3) Toss your old shit, especially biners and slings

 

5) Be suspect of skinny slings, double yourself up when "daisying off" at hanging raps, etc

 

There goes all Mike's gear!!

[montypiton]

thirty-three years ago, climbing in the Garden of the Gods in Colorado Springs, I survived a harness failure on rappel. I had been taught to run the brake portion of the rope from the rappel brake between my legs and then to my brake hand. When the harness failed, I slapped my brake hand to my chest, holding myself "seated" in a bight of rope. I was able to pass the brake portion of the rope over my shoulder and continue the rappel dulfersitz style eighty feet to the ground. most climbers I've witnessed do not pass the brake rope between their legs when rappelling. but this simple adjustment creates a lifesaving redundancy that worked for me...

[hawkeye69]

Damn Monty! you dont talk in a high voice either? actually sounds like a pretty rasonable thing, i will try that. umm not the dulfersitz but the betweent the legs thing...

[Dechristo]

I doubt many allow their harness to become worn to the point of belay loop failure - much less climb to the extent this kind of wear could occur. It's good to talk about and remind that this type of equipment failure is possible as many may climb with the same harness they bought (or made) three decades ago; not me.

 

 

If this unfortunate accident of Todd Skinner's has made you paranoid, consider buying a new harness.

[mountainmatt]

I replace my harness often, and this still sketches me out. I am thinking that I may start adding a little back up loop on my harness that I can replace from time to time. Better safe...

[ericb]

Not sure if you guys saw this, but sounds like it was a worn belay loop

 

-------------------------

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/10/26/CLIMBER.TMP

 

"It's really affecting the climbing community because harness failure is pretty unusual -- it is not supposed to happen," said Ken Yager, president and founder of Yosemite Climbing Association. "It's gotten people thinking about their old harnesses now. I know I'm going to go out and buy a new one."

 

The part that broke, called the belay loop, is designed to be the strongest part of the climbing harness, but Hewett, 34, said Skinner's harness was old.

 

"It was actually very worn," Hewett said. "I'd noted it a few days before, and he was aware it was something to be concerned about." Friends of Skinner said he had ordered several new harnesses but they hadn't yet arrived in the mail.

 

On Monday's climb, Hewitt said the belay loop snapped while Skinner was hanging in midair underneath an overhanging ledge.

 

"I knew exactly what had happened right when it happened," he said. "It was just disbelief. It was too surreal."

 

Stunned and in shock after watching his friend fall, he checked his equipment.

 

"I wanted to make sure that what had caused the accident wasn't going to happen to me," he said. "I then went down as quick as I could."

--------------------------------------

As far as a backup, I'm guessing a friction knot backup would serve to back up both the belay loop, and protect against losing control.....

[Dechristo]

Yes, we saw it - that's why we're talking about belay loops.

 

"It was actually very worn," Hewett said.

[JosephH]

My points are:

 

1) Consider a back-up for your belay loop.

2) Don't use anything old or questionable when a failure is serious

3) Toss your old shit, especially biners and slings

4) Be suspect of skinny slings

5) It is easy to use two biners on your belay - rappel

6) Double yourself up when "daisying off" at hanging raps, etc

 

Can't necessarily concur with these conclusions being the takeaway lessons from losing Todd.

 

1) Consider a back-up for your belay loop.

 

- Consider inspecting your harness (and all gear) frequently and replacing it when worn or damaged.

 

- Understand that the current "ultralight" trend is not "free" - the costs quite often are paid in longevity and robustness. If you go "lite" expect to inspect and replace gear at a much higher freqency and ultimately treat all such gear as consumable or disposable after a perod of time.

 

2) Don't use anything old or questionable when a failure is serious.

 

3) Toss your old shit, especially biners and slings.

 

4) Be suspect of skinny slings.

 

- Blanket assumptions do not apply across classes of gear and materials. Know the limitations of the materials and designs of your gear.

 

- Understand the material lifecycle limitations and acceptable conditions for use of all your gear. Inspect it often, replace as necessary.

 

- Don't get overly attached to gear - especially "comfortable" gear that can't be replaced because it is no longer made.

 

- We all tend to be cheap and "get used" to gear we like; understand this is not always appropriate in all cases - be critical, flexible, and adaptable.

 

- Don't try to "squeak" one more route, trip, or season out of worn or damaged gear.

 

5) It is easy to use two biners on your belay - rappel

 

6) Double yourself up when "daisying off" at hanging raps, etc.

 

- Know when redundancy is appropriate, necessary, and / or desirable and how it can best be achieved.

 

- Understand redundancy can be acheived in many ways and don't go overboard (like one daisy and the rope vs. two daisies). "One is good, two is better" is not always true, but sometimes it is - know the difference which may vary based on conditions and circumstance.

 

===============================================

 

The act of climbing involves a "risk context" with many component and constituent elements and subcontexts. One [concrete] "risk subcontext" is the system comprised of all physical components associated with protection from the belayer to leader as well as the strategy and tactics used in its implementation on each route. Another [abstract] "risk subcontext" is the collection of decisions made by all parties during a climb based on the route attributes, experience, expertise, and environmental conditions involved. You should strive to understand as much as possible about the limitations of material, design, and use of all physical components involved and how they contribute to your overall "risk profile" at any time. That is germane both in the long-term relative to gear maintenance and in the short term relative to how you employ / deploy gear to get up a route.

 

In general, it is fairly remarkable how many of today's climbers coming out of gyms perceive risk. They often tend to completely overlook obvious perils and obsess over things that present trival risk at best. Try to learn as much as you can, keep your eyes and ears open, and think for yourself...

[rob]

Friends of Skinner said he had ordered several new harnesses but they hadn't yet arrived in the mail.

 

Fuck, that's so sad.

[Bug]

Total bummer.

[chris]

Well said, Joseph. It seems that a lot of climbers over-engineer redundancy into systems where it isn't necessary. For many of them these are systems they were taught as beginners, and they've never questioned them.

[Lambone]

The act of climbing involves a "risk context" with many component and constituent elements and subcontexts. One [concrete] "risk subcontext" is the system comprised of all physical components associated with protection from the belayer to leader as well as the strategy and tactics used in its implementation on each route. Another [abstract] "risk subcontext" is the collection of decisions made by all parties during a climb based on the route attributes, experience, expertise, and environmental conditions involved. You should strive to understand as much as possible about the limitations of material, design, and use of all physical components involved and how they contribute to your overall "risk profile" at any time. That is germane both in the long-term relative to gear maintenance and in the short term relative to how you employ / deploy gear to get up a route.

 

lemme guess, you're an engineer...

[Mos_Chillin]

I never used those loops for rappelling, I just always figured there was a reason they were called "belay loops", not "rappel loops", so I followed the specification.

Not to point any fingers, just a long-time observation.

 

BTW, he's a guide.

Edited October 27, 2006 by Mos_Chillin

[underworld]

why would they be safer as belay loops as opposed to 'rap' loops?

[G-spotter]

When Dan Osman's rope broke, how many people concluded that using ropes was unsafe?

[Mos_Chillin]

why would they be safer as belay loops as opposed to 'rap' loops?

 

Belay loops seem to be indicative of irregular tensioning. Belays are rarely body weight ( I hope one is not using said loop for anchoring as well), except during falls. Rappels wear harder due to constant weighting, I guess it seems.

That was my line of reasoning, anyway.

 

BTW, My "rap" loops (harness connection pointS) would be safer because there would be two, contrary to your quote.

Edited October 27, 2006 by Mos_Chillin

[pope]

When Dan Osman's rope broke, how many people concluded that using ropes was unsafe?

 

The issue with belay loops is that they add another single link to the belay chain, a link that doesn't really need to be there. Fresh off the shelf, they are probably engineered to be more than adequate for belaying and descending. But it's just a piece of webbing, a single piece of webbing. As such, it is subject to abrasion, UV damage, and diminished strength that just comes with age. If sewn from a single piece of webbing (as many are), it is also subject to manufacturing flaws, so even though it is doubled, both loops may contain the same weakness.

 

Certainly Todd Skinner isn't the only one who has continued to use a harness (and belay loop) long after it should be retired. Commercial harnesses are expensive. I've seen many climbers who regularly replace their aging slings continue to use an old, faded harness. If this is you, think twice about it. If you're not ready to replace it, avoid the belay loop and clip your locker around both the leg loops and the belt. Also, use 1" webbing for a chalk-bag strap, secure it with a strong knot (bowline is convenient) and use it to back up your harness.

 

Better yet, for about $5, you can buy enough 2" webbing to make a double-wrap swami which works well with commercial leg loops. Since it's cheap, you can replace it once a year.

[layton]

 

2) Don't use anything old or questionable when a failure is serious

 

3) Toss your old shit, especially biners and slings

 

5) Be suspect of skinny slings, double yourself up when "daisying off" at hanging raps, etc

 

There goes all Mike's gear!!

 

No shit dude. When Beckey and I were racking up he looked at my shit and said, "Let's take my gear. Jesus Christ!"

[underworld]

the belay loop...or most any other material for that matter, only cares about a peak load. not so much about residuals.

 

typically, a residual load can be less damaging than cyclical loading, even if those cycles are a lower magnitude.

 

also, the belay loop of a harness is nothing more than a beefed mini-sling. are you concerned about slings you use as anchors in top-ropes or hanging belays?

[G-spotter]

When Dan Osman's rope broke, how many people concluded that using ropes was unsafe?

 

The issue with belay loops is that they add another single link to the belay chain, a link that doesn't really need to be there. Fresh off the shelf, they are probably engineered to be more than adequate for belaying and descending. But it's just a piece of webbing, a single piece of webbing. As such, it is subject to abrasion, UV damage, and diminished strength that just comes with age. If sewn from a single piece of webbing (as many are), it is also subject to manufacturing flaws, so even though it is doubled, both loops may contain the same weakness.

 

Certainly Todd Skinner isn't the only one who has continued to use a harness (and belay loop) long after it should be retired. Commercial harnesses are expensive. I've seen many climbers who regularly replace their aging slings continue to use an old, faded harness. If this is you, think twice about it. If you're not ready to replace it, avoid the belay loop and clip your locker around both the leg loops and the belt. Also, use 1" webbing for a chalk-bag strap, secure it with a strong knot (bowline is convenient) and use it to back up your harness.

 

Better yet, for about $5, you can buy enough 2" webbing to make a double-wrap swami which works well with commercial leg loops. Since it's cheap, you can replace it once a year.

 

the locker through waist belt plus leg loops is triaxially loaded and more likely to break. check ANAM.

 

this is not a case of "belay loops are unsafe" but a case of "worn out ratty old gear is unsafe".

[Mos_Chillin]

It's all about redundancy wherever you can gain it, as Pope pointed out.

[underworld]

It's all about redundancy wherever you can gain it, as Pope pointed out.

 

agreed, but at some point you have to trust your gear and maintain said gear so you can trust it. just as many will trust a rope to not be redundant (at least while rapping)...why not keep you harness up to date so you can trust the belay loop.