Safety in 4th Class Terrain

[Bronco]

Too many deaths on easy terrain lately.  I don't know if this is a typical year but hearing about these types of accidents is bugging me more.  

I think that I've become too complacent in "easy" 3rd and 4th class terrain where a fall will result in serious consequences.  Somewhat of an ego issue, I suspect.  Just being more aware of the risk is probably a good start. 

I don't see any old threads on this particular subject but would be interested to see what everyone else has to say about tips on moving quickly and safely.  Obviously if you have a partner you can rope up on a kiwi coil and simul but how about solo?  What's the best practices there?  

I found this article interesting and a much more serious approach than what I've become accustomed to. https://www.outdoorresearch.com/blog/article/how-to-move-faster-and-more-safely-through-3rd-and-4th-class-terrain

[JasonG]

Usually the rock is too crappy for a rope to be of much use on that kind of terrain around here, and is often more of a hindrance than a help.  I don't disagree with what the article says, but it isn't so simple to stay safe.  Close attention to route-finding and testing holds are key, but it only takes one mistake to kill you.  I almost learned the hard way a few times, and have several friends that weren't so lucky.

Scrambling choss is dangerous!

[G-spotter]

the awesome thing about not being guided is never having to shortrope 4th class terrain

[ScaredSilly]

I have done a fair amount of 4th class climbing. That means it could be 3rd class to easy 5th class. About the only thing I can think of that we do is when traveling unroped we tend to be close together so if the first knocks something off it will not have traveled far before potentially hitting the second. When we decide to break out the rope we rarely short rope and depending on the terrain try to keep two pieces of gear in at all times. Sometimes it is only one. 

 

Edit to add that the 2018 ANAM has a blurb about 4th class climbing.

Edited August 17, 2018 by ScaredSilly

[Drederek]

Well thats kind of what climbing is all about, finding the line that gets you there and just as importantly, back.  I'm more than willing to sacrifice some speed for safety.  Being willing to give up some ground if you spot a better way,  accurately assessing rock quality,  knowing your strengths and weaknesses.  Trusting your gut and knowing when to over rule it.  I believe having an onsight mentality rather than a sporto background is helpful.

[Rad]

I agree this type of terrain can be very dangerous and it's very hard to avoid it on alpine approaches and descents. I try to see the failure scenarios and evaluate probabilities and consequences just as you would for the "real" climbing on your trip. That and stay focused, present, not distracted. As Jason said, I don't see the rope being helpful in very many cases.

[Rad]

Is this the accident you're thinking of @Bronco

Buck Mountain accident

[Bronco]

and this one: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/cashmere-climber-dies-from-injuries-suffered-in-accidental-fall-on-forbidden-peak/

and this one: https://q13fox.com/2018/06/25/seattle-climber-dies-after-falling-down-mount-stuart/

and this one: https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/seattle-man-dies-in-climbing-accident-at-mount-rainier-national-park/814485634

Did we miss any from this year?  I think all 4 of these deaths occurred on class 3-4 routes.  

[ivan]

the rainier accident above sounds more like a rappelling accident, eh?

 

[dberdinka]

Another significant injury on forbidden.  Climbed slipped and got wedged in moat.  Broken back.

Two hikers have fallen off bridges on Wonderland Trail and been swept away (dead).

and of course the woman lost on Vesper Peak.

7 fatalities and 1 serious injury is a lot in one summer.

probably still missing a couple.

[Jason4]

I think JasonG hit an important detail in his first reply: not a lot of good pro in most Cascades "4th class" terrain.  I often joke that we've taken to calling low-5th class terrain with bad pro "4th class terrain" to make ourselves and our significant others feel better about the choices we make in the mountains but the consequence of a fall is the same as a lot of 5th class terrain.  Most of the 4th class routes I've been on have had some protection, either gear or weaving the rope around terrain features but I know there are some serious choss dogs out there that like to climb vertical gravel.

[mountainsloth]

 I’ve soloed, short roped, fixed ropes for groups, simul-climbed, and led this type of terrain. All decisions were based on many variables, including partners, conditions, weather, rock quality, feature of the mountain (ridge, gully, etc.) and even other parties on route.

Either way you choose it, it can be sketchy and it’s easy to become complacent, or bonk mid day which can lead to clumbsyness, lethargy, and poor decision making.

In the end, whatever I choose, my method is slow and methodical when climbing 3rd-low 5th class terrain.  

 

 

[G-spotter]

4th class can mean so many things.

It can mean: "This terrain is 5th class with no pro opportunities" (runout). You run into that a lot on old mountain routes. Especially Culbert/Woodsworth/Clarke mountain routes. Just give'r till you find a spot you can belay.

It can mean "Somebody needs a belay due to the exposure" (scary but easy)

It can mean "It's not worth it to take the rope off for this easy bit between two harder pitches" (time management)

It can mean "Moving together roped up"

It can even mean "you're scrambling, but it feels too hard to call 3rd class"

I think of 3rd, 4th and 5th class as ranges. 4th overlaps from about the middle of 3rd all the way to around 5.8.

 

[Bronco]

I googled "definition of 4th class climbing" and this article came up. https://www.summitpost.org/class-four-is-a-myth-problems-in-yds/891794

33 minutes ago, G-spotter said:

4th overlaps from about the middle of 3rd all the way to around 5.8.

This is pretty good approach Dru.  No easy answers I guess, just try to mitigate risk where you can. 

[montypiton]

in my experience, climbing short roped and making use of terrain belays is often faster than climbing unroped because the protected climbers are less hesitant and do not waste time overthinking sequences.   I've also found it efficient to leave belay brakes threaded - huge time-saver when switching between simulclimbing and the formal belay.

[Rad]

2 hours ago, G-spotter said:

4th class can mean so many things.

It can mean: "This terrain is 5th class with no pro opportunities" (runout). You run into that a lot on old mountain routes. Especially Culbert/Woodsworth/Clarke mountain routes. Just give'r till you find a spot you can belay.

This was our experience on the 4th class "Pink Slabs" of Sky Pilot a few weeks ago.  We didn't have a rope, and my son didn't feel comfortable soloing the slab in his mountaineering boots, which I respected. After some discussion, he decided to wait on the ridge there while I tagged the summit and returned. I told him I was proud of his decision and explained that the views weren't that much better from the top. 

@montypiton I'm a fan of the hip belay. It doesn't require any rigging and can be quite secure if the person doing it is properly anchored and/or situated. It's also faster than pulling the rope through a belay device.

[ivan]

4th class mostly just means to me "don't fuck up"

[montypiton]

Rad - I also like the hip belay, for the same reasons you do - however I recognize that a novice must practice it more than most novices these days are prepared to before it can be counted on to be effective.  I have witnessed a paid (lets distinguish between paid and professional) instructor drop a top-roped climber on a hip belay.  I suggest leaving the belay brake threaded because doing so  offers the same advantages of seamless switching from simulclimbing to formal belay as the hip belay, without requiring a novice climber to master a different belay technique.  I agree with you that taking in and feeding rope is slower than a hip belay, but I suspect that for climbers with less than forty years experience, its likely to be far more trustworthy/effective.

-Haireball

[seano-]

I have often thought that if I eat it, it will likely be on some dumb class 2-3 terrain where I am tired, distracted, and/or bored, and just trying to get it over with.  There's not much to be done about that, beyond remembering that a fall is a fall, whether that's on class 2 or class 5 terrain.

Having watched a lot of short-roping this summer, it seems more like a suicide pact than protection, but maybe that's just me...

[G-spotter]

There's a basic inequality (experienced guide, litigious and inexperienced client) at the heart of short-roping.

It's not being done to make the team safer. It doesn't make the guide any safer. It only makes the client safer. The guide is doing it to protect the client and thus to protect themselves from accusations of negligence.

If two guides are climbing together on the same terrain they aren't going to short rope through it.

 

[genepires]

15 hours ago, G-spotter said:

There's a basic inequality (experienced guide, litigious and inexperienced client) at the heart of short-roping.

It's not being done to make the team safer. It doesn't make the guide any safer. It only makes the client safer. The guide is doing it to protect the client and thus to protect themselves from accusations of negligence.

guiding is a job and the primary task for a guide is client safety.  Not from fear of accusation of negligence but rather a sincere concern for the welfare of the client.  For the most part, the client is more than a client but becomes a friend, much like climbing with a family member new to the sport.  Any climber would short rope a beginning niece climbing right?  No difference with guides and clients

There is more to effective short roping than a death pact.  Doing it right involves the guide soloing, bouncing between secure stances and in those stances allow the client to move, when the terrain could create slips.   Short roping stops slips from becoming falls.   But a snug rope is the only way to curb slips. 

 

15 hours ago, G-spotter said:

 

 

[G-spotter]

There's a basic lack of secure stances on steep shale bands but guides shortrope there anyway.

[genepires]

24 minutes ago, G-spotter said:

There's a basic lack of secure stances on steep shale bands but guides shortrope there anyway.

I guess there is how it "should be done" and then there is "how it is done".  ideally they should be the same.

maybe our definition of secure stance is different? 

 

 

[G-spotter]

Perhaps a "secure stance" is like a "rest step"

[genepires]

the basic focus of the short rope is stopping a slip from becoming a fall.  have to evaluate the terrain the client is on, estimate the forces that would come from a slip and be prepared for that.  So that stance may be good enough for the low angle the clients are on.  The idea is that when a slip occurs, you yank the person into the rock quickly.  the stance requirement for that action would be far less than catching a vertical fall.

Now I hope (and expect) that the guide spends more time watching the clients than looking for trundling rocks.  maybe he is looking for a big flat rock to shit under.

I can only speak for my ways of doing things though.  I only short roped on routes in liberty bell group where there are tons of secure stances, rock horns and cracks for a quick rock pro belay.  

A lot of times, we all proceed in manner that looks like short roping shale ground.  Climbing a icy glacier headwall in usual glacier travel mode is the same thing, just more rope between people.  coming down Baker late season can be the most dangerous thing we ever do.