pope

You're wrong. At the core is my belief that no party has the right to impose their trail of trash on subsequent parties. This must be especially true in a wilderness area. Sport climbing is oriented 180 degrees opposite of this belief. The route in question is in a wilderness area, not some climbers' playground. Those who install routes like this (and the "community" who encourage it) are the ones imposing their trail of trash on the public in a region that is legally protected from precisely that kind of activity. That's what the "climbing community" needs to understand. John Frieh, I've done plenty of climbing. Less than I used to do certainly. If you're around this summer and looking for a partner, contact me through this message board.

up of the roof moves with a dog-head on "pope". Ain't that IceGirl's dog?

I remember hand jamming (palms away) while swinging the left leg onto the spike. You can sit on that thing with toes hooked under some overlaps and have both hands free for placing gear.

You need to realize that you are speaking only for yourself here and maybe a couple of others. Not for the hundreds, perhaps thousands of appreciative climbers. Your feelings are as an individual, and with a viewpoint that is in fact clearly in the minority and a small one at that. You believe that because YOU feel this way, it is the Gods honest truth. But that is a delusion you have and one which I do not share. Again, you need to realize that you are speaking only for yourself here. Your feelings are as an individual, and with a viewpoint that is in fact clearly in the minority and a small one at that. You believe that because YOU feel this way, it is the Gods honest truth. But that is a delusion you have and one which I do not share. No apology is needed. You need to realize that you are speaking only for yourself here. The community is appreciative of having a stellar long route. You are wrong Joseph. It is an "opinion" you have. I do not share your "opinion", nor do about 90% of all other climbers I'd imagine. If Harding had listened to the "Agencies and Authorites" El Cap might still be off limits to all climbers. In my "opinion" none of your remarks hold up to scrutiny, as they are only your "opinion". If it is true that as a community we should reach consensus before we do such an radical act as removing the protection on an existing route, or even changing single bolt on any route. If that is truly the case, then this needs to go a significantly longer distance via discussion only to reach that consensus. You are a good and descent person Joseph, but you might entertain the idea that you are wrong in your opinion, and that everybody else, who wants it to be left alone and in place, is right. That is the way I feel abou it, and o matter how many times you repeat your opinion, you will not change the way I think on it. BTW: this is the way this route looks. Photo Dave Burdick. Pretty f*en sweet looking. What kind of "community" would get behind a "climb" that jeopardizes access to a wilderness area? What kind of "community" could possibly rubber stamp such obvious disrespect for not only the law but also the very spirit of wilderness preservation? What kind of "community" would knowingly equate itself to an off-road vehicle club by advocating the transformation of lawfully protected alpine landscapes with a trail of human engineering and debris? What kind of "community" would turn its back on its own proud tradition of bold, exploratory, minimal-impact climbing? If 90% of climbers are behind such an act (and I seriously doubt that "statistic"), then I'll be thrilled to see the next alpine sport-climbing project go up....the one that finally gives land managers no choice other than to kick the entire "community" and their horse-shite perversion of mountaineering out of wilderness areas altogether.

Yes you do….or you would not be battling me and others on the web about a frickin sport climb. Huh? Let me also recommend a class in logic.

On the average, you'll get a week of good weather in February, two weeks in May, and great weather mid-July through the second or third week of October. The rest of the year is nasty. Wet rock and crappy snow. Get a mountain bike! No partner or dry weather necessary. No farting around in a dusty gym all winter. No lift fees or lines to wait in. And you probably won't get killed doing it. It will keep you strong enough to climb 5.10 off the couch come July.

You are without conscience.

The best climber is..... this guy:

Fine....but what can be done about those sport climbers?

Just think of this as part of your rehab. You're not quite 100% until your liver is back in shape. But seriously, whatever you do take it easy and enjoy the opportunity to wake up to see a new day.

Anybody see Chic Scott's show in Squamish, January 2006?

What? Never been to Vantage? I seem to recall names like Yoder, Pogue, Windham, Massey, Kerns, Collum, etc associated with the bolted lines out there. Don't think these folks fall into the category we're discussing here. Two of the guys you mentioned have either retro-bolted traditional lines or squeezed in sport routes between classic climbs at Castle Rock of all places. I believe those routes remain erased. Didn't that Windham guy put up a controversial alpine sport climb in a wilderness area? Is that your idea of a role model? I had lunch with a guy who is responsible for rap bolting mixed climbs locally, and according to him, one of the guys in your list has found a "secret crag" where he has bolted perfectly protectable, splitter finger cracks....just because he can. One of the guys you mention used to be my steady partner (climbing partner). He was drilling bolts when he was still learning his knots.

And yet chopping often gets done without ceremony and parade. Often we never learn who did the deed. If it were ego motivating choppers, it seems natural that they would want some recognition for their deeds. It could be that choppers see bolting as: (1) removing an important component of the challenges climbing traditionally offered. Bolts take the sport out of climbing (one of life's little ironies). (2) alien to the "rock-scape" and therefore an unwelcome compromise to the visual aesthetics of climbing rock walls. (3) applied with little or no restraint, increasingly on old, bold leads and increasingly next to cracks.

What? Never been to Vantage?

You never know when an alpine celebrity might show up to take a few plops on our "pad". Last year's contributions to the stain collage forced our old mattress into retirement.

"Take!" For Alpine K B_LT's

Nice going. Way to push on through the muck. I was at a birthday party in Fircrest, thinking about all the fun you old-timers must be having. I did make it out to Banner for a quick ride with Dwayner on Monday. Out on the Oakland trail we came to a point where a bunch of bones are nailed to a tree....and there was a strange, woodsy fellow walking down an adjacent trail. Creepy. Mentioning "woodsy" fellows, Dwayner got all hot and bothered when an athletic female trail runner came bounding past.

Still talking about dicks.

Yeah, if you're out there reading this, and if you're the one who chopped it, I say identify yourself. I've got some ice-cold beers with your name on them.

Damn! Makes me want to jump in the car right now!

Not sure I'd call him a "hatemonger". I never liked his approach, but among other things he did promote family values. I suppose those of you who value unrestrained boofing in bath houses felt like your toes were stepped on. In reality you should be thanking the man. He gave you tatoo-sportin', salad-sandwich-chompin', annoying little hippies something to bitch about. I think you'll miss him.

Getting divorced is something that some incredibly honest, caring, disciplined people have to go through. One can't always keep a marriage together by the strength of his/her own moral character. It takes two. I've never been divorced, but I resent your "typical loser stuff" comment. A little off topic, aren't we?

Awesome! Way to own that bitch kitty of a hill. This photo is an instant classic:

Matt, don't be too flattered, but I generally ignore what Richard Noggin and Mr. E have to say (whole bunch of nothin') and go right to your generally thoughtful essays. I don't understand the nature of their objections. I can only infer that folks who see no value in this discussion but simultaneously find time to chime in with sophomoric drivel...these must be among the most bored and small-minded people on the planet.