pope

Name dropper. "Leashless" is a fad, like tatoos and nose rings. I find it interesting that guys in the "leashless" camp will argue that using leashes is aid, and in the same breath, they'll tell you that "leashless" makes difficult pitches easier. Folks, the fact that you're grabbing an ice tool means you're aid climbing. Period. You wanna go leashless? Go ahead. Please just announce this to everybody below you, something like, "I've got this sharp, heavy thing here and if I drop it, your helmet will be useless."

You're right about THAT difference. But otherwise they're very similar (see my post above). They're both forms of aid because both involve changing the medium and then applying some mechanical device for gaining purchase.

I drop mine all the time! hahhaa! Actually, I dont anymore. The first season (getting used to them) most of the folks I climbed with dropped them from time to time-including myself. Its a rare event to see that happen now. You just learn how to be more aware, I guess. I started climbing with leashes. That lasted two years. I switched to leashless and love them. I honestly wouldnt, and havent, hesitated leading with them because they are more comfortable to me. I did, however, try using some leashes a few years ago and had a hell of a time with them. I think leashes have their place. For me, its important to switch back and forth, so when I feel I need them, Im comfortable. In regards to new folks learning leashless. Thats how I see it here in the midwest. Its actually rare to see someone with leashes on their tools, unless they are pushing their leading level. You can always carry a third tool if youre worried about dropping them. One thing I notice when tr'ing harder routes is that I often hang more than I would if I have leashes. Mostly, because Im so pumped and dont want to drop them or have them 5+ feet above me. Unplanned falls suck! In a sense I guess leashes would be considered aid,because they might be the only thing keeping you from falling - but thats an old debate. Just fricken climb with whatever works best for you. And Pope - I just watched an entire climb fall today, approx 30 min after climbing 10 feet from it. The last thing I am worried about while ice climbing is getting hit by a dropped tool. Random ice chunks are far more frequent. I watched Narada Falls collapse on New Years Day, 1990, about an hour after we climbed it. Terrifying! I've always believed in keeping things clipped in, especially things you can't get by without having. Whether you use a leash or some kind of keeper sling, it seems important to not lose your tool. Same thing with a wall hammer, which I keep attached to a sling around my shoulder when nailing. I really like leashes on ice tools. When I started, we didn't have screws with large, ratcheting hangers. You couldn't place a screw with one free hand. The technique was kind of cool: from one well-place tool, you would shove your arm through the leash all the way to the elbow, then you could hold the ice screw like a nail while giving a few taps to start it. Then you would stick the other tool's pick through the screw's hanger and turn the tool like a huge wrench. The technique of hanging off an elbow hooked through a leash is still useful for freeing up your hands when you'r trying to thread a runner behind a large drip, or when you want to take a photograph in the middle of a pitch. But I suppose that means you wouldn't be "free climbing".

Fundamentally the same thing. You creat a hole in the medium, you stick in some metal device, you use the device to pull up and support your weight. Absolutely equal. Absolutely aid. Now do you get it? Do you want me to draw you a picture? BTW, I was climbing steep ice when you were still peeing in your Pull-Ups.

Did you have something to say? 'Cause I kind of like you in your current state. I've done plenty of dangerous stuff in the hills. You don't even know.

I wouldn't belay a guy who climbs without leashes. I don't want to be hit by a falling ice pick. With or without leashes, ice climbing is aid. It's mechanically very similar to drilling bat hooks. Whatever you wish to do to make it harder or easier, who cares? Leashes extend your endurance on steep ice, making it physically a little easier to hold on before losing your grip. Hence, they're really no different in purpose than the modern, ergonomically designed handles, or for that matter, full-shank boots and rigid crampons.

The "statue of liberty play" to win the game. AWESOME!

Actually, everybody and his grandma own a Bosch these days, and a quick survey of the state of our crags suggests that sport climbing is the status quo. If you want to be radical, drill by hand on the lead. If you don't think this is radical, you obviously have never tried. Or, if you really want to try something out of the ordinary, walk up to the line you want to climb with a wire brush and a fistful of tiny brass nuts, chalk your fingers, look up and start going. Trust me, it's radical. It's a cure for irregularity. Oh, so that we stay on topic, welcome back, D.F....who?

For what, the bullshit? Just kidding. Have fun.

Hemlock: This is Henri Baq. I had a bullet in me once. He carried me for 3 days. I owe him. He was a friend. Jemima Brown: Who's that man? Hemlock: That's Miles Mellough. He tipped off the people who put the bullet in me, an enemy. Jemima Brown: And him? Hemlock: That's Ben Bowman. He and I climbed a lot together. I'm going out to his climbing school and get in shape. Jemima Brown: Friends, enemies. Where do I fit in? Hemlock: I'm sorry, but you don't. Here's to the selfish killer and the patriotic whore. Jemima Brown: Do you have anything else to say to me? Hemlock: I usually keep a twenty in the bowl by the kitchen door. You might pick it up on your way out.

Oh my gosh! Is that true? You must be the first person ever to notice!

It's been climbed solo by a girl. Quit making excuses. Cowboy up.

"Oh, I think it's important that you lead."

Eiger Sanction transcript--mostly accurate

Beers to you. What's right is right, regardless of anybody's nationality or local traditions. Anybody here in Washington who can't afford a rack of gear (but mysteriously you can afford an impact drill)...you should borrow my rack before you drill bolts next to a crack. I'll even teach you how to place the gear.

Bravo! Way to export American values to the Olde World. Can't say I'm an expert but according to a few saints who routinely perform this service, the best solution is often to saw off the bolt, then use a large punch to knock it deeper into the hole, followed by cosmetic amendments.

Me and some buddies were getting tanked one night and came up with this peronal add for the Stranger: "Make my enormity your priority."

Superfluous Bolt (just kidding), Candy Land, EBGB's, ZZZ, Run for Your Life, Equinox (I toproped it), Coarse and Buggy, Streetcar Named Desire. Don't forget to go hiking! Running wild through the Wonderland of Rocks or the drainages down Queen Mountain with nothing but a water bottle and a loin cloth. Late nights with Wild Turkey under the Milky Way while coyotes yap and cold winds compel you to move closer to the hypnotic leaping flames of a burning pallet. There’s nothing quite like a week (or three) in Joshua Tree. Go wild in Joshua Tree.

That's interesting. When I was obsessed with climbing, back when I was around 20 years old, I used to train twice a day, with bouldering, pullups, grippy things, hangs, etc. After a year or so, my left elbow started to hurt. I kept climbing and training, it hurt even more. I quit climbing for a bit, and it hurt even more. And that's when my right elbow started to hurt. I quit climbing much of anything for a year but still no relief. It hurt to drive my car and turn the pages of a book. I tried ice, heat, bracing, stretching. Nothing worked. Then I got an outdoor job doing low-skill landscaping. By the end of the summer, my elbows felt better. After two summers of that, I was 100%. I couldn't do as many pullups, but I was climbing four letter grades harder (and rarely got pumped). I joined a gym in Seattle and the pain began to return. This time I tried deep muscle massage and that helped, but the thing that seemed MOST effective was weight training for muscle groups not as likely to get used on steep rock. I did lots of military press and bench press work at a variety of angles, and lots of shrugs. I worked with dumbells which allowed me to keep my wrists and forearms in their most natural rotations. What makes me think this was effective is that when I neglected to do it, pain and numbness returned, but when I kept up with it, I could train almost as hard as I wanted. I thank Erik Winkelman for suggesting this strategy. The other thing I did was that I trained only a couple of days a week (sometimes three). I felt so much healthier that way. Everybody is different, and I'm no doctor. Don't take this as advice, just some anecdotes about how I solved my problem.

Not true. Change in equipment and attitudes throughout the history of climbing is well documented. Free climbing old aid lines, hard free soloing, dynamic ropes, sticky rubber, the clean climbing revolution with nuts, Friends and a variety of similar devices for parallel-sided cracks. There's been plenty of change. Even 12-point crampons. You'll notice that everything in my list has one thing in common: they don't impact the experience of subsequent climbing parties by leaving a mess on the rock. Mister E, you're back to your premise: change is good and you have to accept it. I see the same mentality in my profession where countless dollars are thrown at efforts to "reform" education when often the proposed changes aren't proven to be better than the current practices. Change can be good, it can be terrible. When a change is made and the consequences are arguably negative, we should consider another change, perhaps a change back to what we were doing previously.

Are you qualified to make such summaries?

Yes and no. Sport climbing and the mess it leaves has NEVER been demonstrated to be necessary for advancing standards. I don't want to hold anybody back, and I'm certainly inspired by skilled climbers who move rapidly over difficult terrain in good style. I just don't think sport climbing is the ONLY way to improve climbing skill and fitness. Nobody can make the case that without sport climbing, standards wouldn't have advanced. Prior to sport climbing, more and more difficult climbs were getting done and many of the "ultimate" climbs in Yosemite were getting climbed in record time. The trend toward competence had been going on for decades prior to sport climbing. Climbers devoted to the sport were training on finger boards, lifting weights, bouldering, doing circuits in the Camp IV "gym". These guys found a way to get incredibly strong without making a mess. Suddenly in the 1980s, gratuitous bolting was promoted as a necessary evil for increasing standards. Who is to say that without sport climbing, this push toward difficulty and mastery would have ceased? I'm not buying that argument. The only attempt at making this argument amounted to dropping a couple of names of accomplished climbers who happened to endorse sport climbing. I have no doubt that sport climbing helped them gain climbing skill and fitness, but to say they couldn't have done it any other way is pure speculation.

Hey Hawkeye, with your utilitarian approach to rock climbing ("I don't really like the thought, but the movement is fun"), and considering his environmental record, I'm amazed you're not already in GWB's corner!

Is that at Smith? I thought I was on Ring of Fire but I can't remember much except that after doing the crux, I looked down and the first thing I noticed was my girlfriend's cleavage. Now that can be a dangerous distraction, but next I noticed about eight feet of slack sitting on the ground between me and the belay device. Then I remember some guys in lycra who had been "working" the route all day. They shouted up some encouragement about how I was "home free" and could probably find a rest about 10 feet higher at some "bomber jugs". I arrived at the rest to find hand jams....a REAL rest... but no jugs. The only jugs I remember seeing were back at the belay. Wink wink.