pope

Here's the quote in question: "Read a little history and you will find that since rock climbing emerged as a sport apart from mountain climbing there has been a general trend where each successive generation's improvements are criticized by the prior. Roped belaying was decried by some in the early 20th century, pitons in the 20's, aid climbing in the 50's, and even cams were said by some to be cheating when they came out in the '70's." Here's what you did, MattP, which I think does illuminate your "take" on modern bolting practices (and if this doesn't do it, remember that only the uninformed novices and nonclimbing land managers are unaware of your activities that have contributed to the problem). In the italicized paragraph above, you entered into a discussion on bolting and brought up this supposed historical criticism of "improvements" in rock climbing, as if to put into historical perspective the current criticism of excessive bolt application. Clever subtext to readership: today's bolting critics are just afraid of anything new and their rants can be dismissed since they are clearly taking their place in history as a generation of nonadaptive, xenophobic fossils. By comparing bolting opponents to such "historical" critics of equipment improvements, you are necessarily comparing bolts to what have been considered legitimate improvements in climbing technology. Also, it is not my intention to stir the pot. Not everybody vocally in opposition to your views is merely trying to create a disturbance. Furthermore I have never advocated a no-bolt approach to rock climbing, although it would be an improvement on the current state of the sport. I have heard Don advocate no bolts, and you are very close to it. So lets step back and get the historical perspective. Short synopsis: Royal Robbins was one of the earliest who postulated that with technology, humans could theoretically go anywhere. Since we climbed for the adventure, it only made sense for us to arbitrarily draw a line in the sand "for ourselves" on technology's use so as to maintain that spirit of adventure. Somehow that has gotten twisted now by some jackasses to mean that use of bolts should be illegal. Frankly, I climb at 2 parks occasionally. Beacon Rock State Park and Smith Rocks State Park. Using your thinking, they should not be putting in pavement as that permanently leaves scars in the land in a major way. Nevermind that people who want to just drive to the park to have a picnic will all get screwed. They should not put in water spigots LIKE THEY BOTH HAVE as the construction to do so permanently scars the land in a major way. Fu*k thirsty people, let them get water at their homes eh? They should not put in campsites LIKE THEY BOTH HAVE as the construction to do so permanently scars the land in a major way. Fu*k the campers eh? They should not put in trails LIKE THEY BOTH HAVE as the construction to do so permanently scars the land in a major way. Both places have hammered and pounded the crap out of the rock to make trails, in a major way. Of course that screws the hikers. Nevermind that you can hardly see the bolts they are so small. Just another user group you want to get the shaft. As far as that goes, by your thinking, roads should not be in place at all. Even the non-paved logging roads to your lil out of the way crags tear the holy hell out of the land. Well, when you stop living in a house or using wood in any way, or stop driving to your favorite climbing spot on that major pavement that permanently scarred and tore the holy hell out of the land, maybe we can talk about this. Until then you're just another loudmouth hypocrite. You really want me to read all of that shite? Dude, stick it in a couple of short paragraphs. Make it like....the old 1-2 knock out.

Pink...like the image. Chunga's Revenge.

Because it seemed irrelevant to my point, I omitted it. My point is that by reminding everybody that there exists a history of criticisms of new technologies, which you called improvements, you seem to suggest that the current criticism of bolts is a continuation of this pattern....a tendency for some to criticize technology improvements. The statement you wanted me also to include when I quoted you only suggests that sport climbing might not be the pinnancle of development. It does nothing to reverse your implied comparison of bolts to previous improvements. Furthermore, I don't believe I've ever predicted via ferrata rigs on boulders.

Here's the quote in question: "Read a little history and you will find that since rock climbing emerged as a sport apart from mountain climbing there has been a general trend where each successive generation's improvements are criticized by the prior. Roped belaying was decried by some in the early 20th century, pitons in the 20's, aid climbing in the 50's, and even cams were said by some to be cheating when they came out in the '70's." Here's what you did, MattP, which I think does illuminate your "take" on modern bolting practices (and if this doesn't do it, remember that only the uninformed novices and nonclimbing land managers are unaware of your activities that have contributed to the problem). In the italicized paragraph above, you entered into a discussion on bolting and brought up this supposed historical criticism of "improvements" in rock climbing, as if to put into historical perspective the current criticism of excessive bolt application. Clever subtext to readership: today's bolting critics are just afraid of anything new and their rants can be dismissed since they are clearly taking their place in history as a generation of nonadaptive, xenophobic fossils. By comparing bolting opponents to such "historical" critics of equipment improvements, you are necessarily comparing bolts to what have been considered legitimate improvements in climbing technology. Also, it is not my intention to stir the pot. Not everybody vocally in opposition to your views is merely trying to create a disturbance. Furthermore I have never advocated a no-bolt approach to rock climbing, although it would be an improvement on the current state of the sport.

That's never been the stance. Rocks can't be hurt. They don't feel. Bolts hurt climbers. They turn us into pussies. They make climbing too easy. Plus they're ugly and alien to the mountaineering medium. Now, I know that sage MattP will gladly compare bolts to other "improvements" in climbing technology and remind us that, like bolts, these improvements met similar opposition initially. What he will avoid pointing out is that unlike dynamic ropes, sticky rubber, SLCD's, front points, etc. etc. etc......the choice to bolt completely changes the climbing experience for everybody, not just the party who decides to use them. Since good cragging is somewhat of a limited resource, the best choice is to restrain ourselves when applying bolts.

Call in sick for work, tell your wife you're going to work. Why didn't I think of that?

Every problem in this world can be dismissed by the existence of a larger problem? Does a larger pile of shit across the street make the pile under your shoe smell sweet? Remember, those who participate in climbing would be wise to protect and preserve the medium, and the spirit of adventure that have made climbing easy to distinguish from table tennis and yard darts....although that boundary is certainly more fuzzy than it used to be.

Improvement? What improvement? We're talking about sport climbing.

And first place in the division. Hopefully a few more people will be healthy in two weeks. We still have the problem of poor run blocking and a highly paid back who can't run without great blocking.

Never been there. Looks kind of stupid. I'd rather see no climbing than sport climbing. Just don't go around suggesting those are the only options. There's top roping, free soloing and bolt protected climbing established on lead.

Hey whippersnapper, I have a question for you. Before sport climbing, with its bolt trails, its crowds of limp-wristed hangdoggers and all of the impact attendant thereto.....did climbing exist?

Thanks for walking me down Memory Lane. This BB used to have class.

Is it still there? The Extreeeeeemmeee squeeze job? Not for much longer. And not that is not an excuse to start grid bolting other horrible routes. That trail is in need…..since the popularity is getting out of hand, the trail keeps falling down the hill. All involved with development has helped out at one time or another with the trail. But, every year it gets worse and worse. The best time to fix it is in the winter when the ground is soft. Summer is a bitch to dig into ground out there. Thanks in advance for all your work…..PM me and let me know when….I will try to make it to help out….I could potentially get others to help as well. I've got an idea that will save everybody much trouble. Chop all the bolts! Then the popularity of the spot takes a nosedive and Mother Nature will mend the trail.

I'm thinking that if the sling was clipped on the FA, why not add a bolt a couple feet down from where the piton is?

I don't think Hasselback is the problem. Combine a pampered Alexander with an O-line that can't run block and that gets zero push on short yards...that's the problem. At least in the first few games the pass protection (easiest kind of blocking) was pretty good. Now that's gone to heck too. Looks pretty grim. But as for Hasselback....remember that broken 4th-quarter play against Arizona which resulted in a turnover? When the ball was on the ground, Hasselback was actually fighting to recover. Alexander just stood there with his thumb up his butt. Hasselback is talented and competitive. The rest of the offense is collapsing. Prediction: 7-9 followed by Alexander retiring.

Reminds me of Zappa's "groupie routine", something everybody should hear once. Here's a script of one variation: I mean, really, really, I mean, you guys, What can I say, you guys are my favorite band You gotta tell me somethin', Are you here in Hollywood long? I mean, I just... No, I'm ah, we're recording here in town You're recording here? Yeah, at the Record Plant The Record Plant? Yeah Oh, Bobby Sherman records here I just love Bobby Sherman and David Cassidy Do you know David Cassidy? No, I... Have you ever run into any members of the Tree Dog Night? Joe Shermy once I... Oh! They are my favorite band! They're so professional, I mean... So creative... How 'bout David Crosby? I mean... He's so in, you know, I... No, I never... He's...he just knows... I mean, he almost cut his hair but he didn't No, listen, ah, do you know how... Do you know how to get to the Chateau Mormon from here? Not exactly...is it by the, by the airport? No no, we don't, we have a bus on this particular thing Oh! Yeah Tell me one thing: do you like my new car? Oh yeah! It's a...Pavilion, isn't it? Oh, not just a Pavilion, it's a Pauley Pavilion Oh! Yeah, it's real futuristic, I like the little naked man turn signals So ah, we gotta get up, you know, And ah, go to the studio in the morning And then we groove court for about two weeks And then we ah, we leave again Oh, really? Where do you play when you go from here? Ah, let me see...Needles... Oh oh! You guys are so professional No, it's nothing... I mean the way you get to travel to all those exotic towns You get to playin' and playin' in all these great sounding halls Tell me somethin': do you really have a hitsingle in the charts now? Right now, I mean, with a bullet? That's really important Listen baby, would I lie to you Just to run my fingers through your pukes? Don't talk to me that way! I am not a groupie! I never said that... I'm not a groupie Neither are my friends here Jim and Ian and Aynsley and Don and Frank None of us are groupies Pleased to meet all you girls Hiya Howie... Tell 'em, tell 'em, we don't...we aren't groupies Howard Yeah We only like musicians for friends That's right You, you know, you understand? We still wanna hear your record You know, we still like to come in your bus Listen now, on the other side of the record, Didn't you say that you got off bein' juked With a baby octopus and spewed upon with cream corn? And that your hair-lipped queen-o-bassplayin' girlfriend With the cross ties and the tits on her shirt Had to have it with a hot Seven-Up bottle or you went up the wall? Oh! Howie... What's the deal, mama? Howie, all that's true, Howie And sometimes I even dig it with a Jack-In-The-Box ring job But Howie, we are NOT, we are NOT groupies, Howie I told Robert Plant that I told Elton John I told Steve Stills Yeah And he didn't even wanna ball me I can see that... Listen, the thing is baby, I want some action, you know I'm only here for a couple of weeks, Recording at the Record Plant With that naked statue in the bathroom and stuff... I'm horny as fuck! Listen to me... I want a steaming, succulent, juicy, drippy, ever-widening Kind of a smelly, slimy, many folded, Sort of in-and-out contracting sphincter Kind of a hole with a, with a, with a... Let's see, there's gotta be a way I can put this discreetly Let's say we hop in the isle over those guys And the blewin' FUCK BABY! Hey, hey, hey! I'm in this band man... I told you that many times No matter what goes on Listen! It just so happens tonight I mean, this is unbelievable Are you a Virgo No... I mean, it just so happens tonight Me and my girlfriends, well, We came here lookin' for a guy from a group Ah! But just not ANY guy from ANY group Yeah... We're lookin' for a guy from a group with a DIK Well, I can show you! But he's gotta have a dik which is a monster! (Wow!) That's me! You peeked! That's me, you little Westward wench nipple-queen! Take me, I'm yours, you hole. Fulfil my wildest dreams! Oh! Anything for you my most seductive pop star of a man. Yeah? Picture this if you can Okay, I'll try... Bead jobs Knotted nylons Bamboo canes Three unreleased recordings of Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young Fighting at the Fillmore East. Oh! Two unreleased recordings of...of the Grateful Dead, Sitting in with Mel Torme Yeah! No! I... Oh! Man! Oh, I, I just... I can't stand it! Do you understand me baby? I mean, I can't stand it! I can't stand it! I can't stand it! ... I gotta see my baby! I gotta... I can't stand it!

I've seen Max. That's one intimidating bear of a dog.

Our brains? Let's suppose an elderly family member is functionally a vegetable. Can't add 2+2 and completely depends on you for care. Not terribly different than a fetus or recently born baby. Are they less human because they can't do calculus? Should they have to pass some kind of I.Q. evaluation before they are protected by law?

If I remember correctly, nearly 50% of Washington pregnancies are "terminated". That's ridiculous...and it just goes to show that humans too often exploit (because it's convenient) options which should only be employed in very special cases. Don't want a child? You can: 1. Cross your legs. 2. Use contraceptives. 3. Enjoy the "brown starfish" or the "cake hole". When all else fails, you've got 72 hours. With all of these options, we can be "pro choice" without killing babies. And who needs abortion when we've got sport climbing?

It probably depends who you talk to, but ROTC is way more physical than the Squamish climbs you mention. The hardest move is probably 10+ but until you reach the hand crack below the pod, there aren't too many great rests, probably because it's slightly over vertical. Clean Crack has a disco crux and feels relatively relaxing (once climbed it with four stoppers and a swammi belt). My first trip up ROTC (with MisterE) was 5 feet short of success when I couldn't squirm through the pod, due to fatigue and too much clothing. Even if you're cold, strip down when you're ready to climb. You'll heat up quickly. Two years later I nailed it but it felt even harder. Scotty Hopkins was on jumars photographing and I've got a calendar-quality shot of him as well as photos of a very young Jason Mikos making it look easy. I'll see if I can locate them. Easter Overhang is one of the best 5.10 climbs in the Washington. There used to be a fixed bong and some jugs so good you could cut your feet loose for a spectacularly exposed dip into the chalk bag.

Thanks, Dwayner. That's going to save me a bundle of money this holiday season.

I was told there was a bolt right in the area where this fellow is climbing. Tell me it ain't true!

I remember after the Sword crux looking up at a knife-blade crack, thinking it looked 5.12 or harder. I didn't even know the route was supposed to stray out of the corner, but it goes out left for some very exposed face climbing on hollow blocks/jugs. Best part was getting back into the corner, just before the belay. I remember placing something blindly around the corner and being freaked out by the fact that I couldn't see it. Somebody told me there's now a bolt protecting the corner re-entry move. True? Shame if there is. That was the coolest thing on the Sword.

Dwayner's got a great story about jumping in one of those. Maybe he'll share. I wouldn't get close to one of those, personally. There's great swimming in the Wenatchee, across from Castle Rock, and also in town at the park.

This has nothing to do with schools. I doubt this girl has spent much time in a classroom. Teachers have little control over the education of kids who don't show up for school. I used to work as a high school teacher and the dumbest kids were those who never showed up. They were the ones whose parents didn't care when you called them to find out why their kid didn't show up. Or they were the ones who were disruptive and caused other kids to have a less than a satisfactory experience. Families who don't support their children in their educational endeavors are likely to have kids that have the level of critical thinking that Miss South Carolina appears to have. You'd be suprised at how big a deal attendance is at the average school. Should teachers be penalized for the grades of students who only show up every once in awhile and don't even pretend to try when they do show up? Jason ABSOFUCKINLUTELY! If your dentist advises your children to brush and floss routinely, but you don't follow through by monitoring their brushing routines, do you think your dentist deserves a demotion and decreased salary when your kids develop tooth decay? Oprah was recently criticized for opening schools for girls in S. Africa. Critics asked, "Don't American children need your help?" She replied that U.S. children care far more about i-pods and Nike shoes than education, after which she received even more criticism. I think she's correct. And we can mostly blame an F'ed up culture that doesn't value raising responsible children. I hear you, Pope. And we've had this conversation before. But how much you want to bet that beauty queen is sitting on a 3.5 or higher? And if she is, then that does mean someone - in addition to her parents - isn't upholding the social contract. NEA and their state satellites are partly to blame, IMO, because their teacher compensation demands allow poor teachers - inclined toward allowing social promotion like this to happen - to earn as much as good teachers who deserve much, much more. I also agree that allowing teachers a free hand in discipline, physical if necessary, would go a long way toward the overall good. I agree that the NEA is pretty worthless. I pay them a bunch of money...for what I'm not sure. But I don't know if I'd blame them and/or incompetent teachers for social promotion. My school district has an official middle-school policy that states (roughly) since the "research" demonstrates only negative consequences from holding back young students, when a middle-school student is failing three or more classes, the school will simply recommend to the student's parents that repeating a grade is an option. If the parents feel the student would benefit from moving on with his/her classmates, that student will be promoted to the next grade. We also have a policy for advanced placement classes that states students of such ability should receive an A or B grade. I gave several D and F grades this year in violation of the policy. These policies are written by administrators who are not in the WEA. The bottom line is that schools need 60% to pass issues for raising local money. They don't want to piss anybody off...it's better that the student runs into a buzzsaw in college (where they actually have to study) than to face the fact that education requires effort and self-discipline even in high school, or so it seems when one studies school district policies and their relationship with parents.