pope

Or did you pull out your "brass balls" and send onsight? Is this one of those activities that you have no right to comment on because you haven't done it yourself?

There is nothing "on-going" and "the bet" was childish. Here's the story which directly relates: A few years ago, there was a discussion about hang-dogging in which I described it as "siege climbing". The old school philosophy is that you climb from the bottom up, and if you fell, you were lowered to the ground and started over, or you trained on lower grades and worked your abilities higher until you were good enough to address the climb on its own terms. Hang-dogging...hanging off your gear to rest, falling repeatedly while rehearsing the moves, was considered weak free-climbing, essentially aid, and bogus. It demonstrated that you weren't ready. So let's say the climb is 5.13, and someone thrashes their way up this thing after weeks of hang-dogging and rehearsal and than pulls the rope and "red-points" it. Is this person really a 5.13 climber versus someone who has worked their abilities to the point where they can actually lead it on-site? An analogous tradition can be seen in the expedition vs. alpine tradition in mountaineering where alpine-style climbing is considered a stylistically superior means of obtaining a summit. Reinhold Messner epitomized this by advocating and demonstrating the concept of climbing the mountain by fair means, not beating/sieging it into submission. I also made the analogy on cc.com about a piano; something to the affect of: You may not be able to play the piano today but rehearse it enough and you'll be able to play a Beethoven sonata. This, by the way, does not mean that you have the same skill level of someone who has worked up their skill level to the point where new music can be set in front of them and they can play through a sonata without falling all over themselves. I made the comment that I felt that nearly any climber with the dedication could, using the present rules of sport climbing, pull off a 5.13 if they were allowed to rehearse the moves endlessly into submission. It might take them months or a year or whatever, but put up rules like that, and it opens the door to all kinds of faux-accomplishments. I picked 5.13 because a lot of folks see that as a BIG NUMBER! and it seems to be a usual number for when the on-sight leading often ends and the sieging begins. Some folks chimed in saying 5.13 wasn't such a big deal anymore....it's what 5.12 was 20 years ago or 5.11 25 years ago. They're all over the place now...Whatever, I was making a theoretical statement apparently lost on many. Then the usual cc.com taunts began, and a few of the usual and predictable blow-hards came out with frat-boy challenges to collect a bet that Dwayner couldn't possibly climb any kind of 5.13 no longer how he tried. It was utterly childish. One major moderator on this site told me that it would be impossible for me (to which I replied that I hope he doesn't spread his crappy attitude to children). The school-yard buddies delivered their usual lame clichés: "put your money where..." and my award for the most pathetic of all time: "don't cash a check your *ss can't deliver" Believe me, if I had a convenient crag nearby, the interest and inspiration, and importantly, the time (none of which I have), it would be very satisfying to engage in such a challenge myself....it's not an excuse...it's reality...(on the other hand, I don't have an inclination to respond to juvenile bets, but if I ever do, it will be on my own time and terms). Regardless, my concept still stands. Perhaps someone with an abundance of the factors that thwart me can prove me correct. Now wasn't that fascinating? Hi Dwayner. How have you been? Long time no speak. ok enough chit-chat. It's easy to say "Oh I could do that." I know, because I do it all the time. It's a confidence I have, but the time eventually comes when I step on to that which I have almost blithely dismissed, and thank goodness occasionally get my ass kicked. This is good for me! It smacks me of my arrogance! It lets me know that I need to try if I want to do something, and that nothing is given until it is actually accomplished, and also takes me to what I love about climbing: figuring stuff out. Let me re-state that: until one has climbed something quite specific, well, they haven't climbed it. Rather self-evident, yes? No amount of rationalization, equivocation, explanation, prognostication, hubris, or ventriloquism can change this fact. You should know this: before that dinosaur bone is in your hand, it isn't in your hand, and you don't know whether or not you will find it. Perhaps you have a good idea that a specific location might contain dinosaur bones and eggs and mummies and stuff, but since you haven't climbed even a 5.12, what makes you think you will find a mummy in your closet? Until you actually step out from behind your excuses and attempt that which you so arrogantly dismiss, you will be nothing but an archaeologist lost in your closet. Did you know that Andres Segovia spent most of his time practicing scales and etudes? Very simple stuff, rehearsing and rehearsing. Many artists do this. Personally I'm more pulled by the spirit of things and not just the mastery, but I admire mastery also. You, Mister Don, need to be less arrogant and climb more, instead of always complaining about the state of climbing. OMFG...so brilliant...damn... Fascinating how liberal we've become with that adjective. Guess you have to consider the readership. Anyway, a number of our more annoying participants have echoed the notion that it is not appropriate to criticize an activity unless one has participated, especially if the activity required discipline and focus. In some cases this might be good advice, but in this particular situation there is an important consideration that has been conveniently ignored within this thread. I'll provide an analogous example. Suppose a professional baseball player is in the hunt for a home-run title and he finds that the players leading the race are injecting performance enhancing drugs. He thinks this is unethical and refuses to participate, yet knows without the drugs he probably won't be competitive. Does he have a right to denounce something he feels is not only poor style but is seriously damaging the integrity of a game he loves? I think he does, but ONLY if he takes the moral high ground and refuses to particpate in doping. OK kids, you draw the parallels here. If you can't figure it out, perhaps you could PM that brilliant Sexy Mocha guy for the answers.

OK, in case you're ignorant of this fact, climbing has traditions. These traditions dictate that climbing involves not only athletic ability and skill, but also boldness, adventure and respect for the medium. Turn your back on this and you'll lose what makes climbing special, what makes climbing different than Olympic-level competition in track or volleyball or synchronized swimming. Now, if you don't value boldness and tradition, but you still think scaling walls is "neato", then I suggest you stick to gym climbing and top-roping. Thereby can you remove ALL adventure and boldness from "climbing" and concentrate on perfecting your stupid little "project". I don't have a problem with this approach per se....it's when your bastardized form of climbing requires molesting our cliffs with a grid of bolts to accomodate your poor style that I have a problem.

I'll defer to your expert opinion in this matter.

Actually, that bag was full of alpine snacks: Vienna sausage, kippered fish (in mustard sauce), sweet cherry peppers, imported yuppie cheese and Sheaf Stout. The photographer (Jon Sheriff) and I once manufactured a small number of custom chalk bags made to the specifications of elite and demanding climbers. These hand-crafted bags weren't available for Jeff Smoot's famous chalk bag review, and so we were never able to ascertain their "dipability" coefficient. But I promise you they were the cat's ass. In the Brass Balls photo you can see one of these custom bags, constructed with a special tropical fish print fabric. These bags were highly desirable and production was slow. Occasionally fist fights broke out over who would receive the next bag.

SORRY MY BAD, TYPO: PLS READ LYNN WITH HOT NEW KIDS (XOUT OTHER) i'm in u district!! i started climbing 10-12years ago.i come from running background where posing and aid are not big sellers.(they dont have the downhill 4min mile yet) i love nature's dance and my humble place in it.messner's quote of "the rape of the impossible" loosely finds me.thats just me. however, what bolters do to the rock is irreversible.(+-) if i view this debate as a non-climber, i dont think we should bolt everywhere. as a climber i dont like to see them much. over and out on this one There's tremendous truth in what you're saying. Hold on to your ideals.

Dude, whatever. When are we doing Ranger Creek?

Witty. No, I mean it. But you really shouldn't have gone through so much trouble. Next time, a tiny but highly exciting little BLOW JOB will suffice.

When my mother found out, it made her cry. Real men don't make their mothers cry. Damn! You really oughta give your momma's tits a break. You must be a school boy on summer break. How do I infer? 'Cause you've got NO CLASS!

So what if it's "only 5.4"? That's gotta be one of the coolest looking mountains anywhere. It's on my list. Nice work, Feck.

Many years ago we went up to do Iconoclast. Somehow we missed the exit out of the big corner and started up Hyperspace. After realizing our mistake, and thinking we probably didn't have the right rack for Hyperspace, we went out left...I think it was the last pitch of Galaxy. It was terribly dirty, and I remember placing a nut way up under a squeeze roof chimney thing before traversing further left. My partner wasn't small enough to squirm up and reach or even unclip the piece, so he went back to the belay and untied. I pulled the rope and threw it back down. There were some tense moments because we weren't sure I could throw the rope in a place where he'd be able to grab it. It all worked out, but I wasn't left with the desire to climb the complete route.

You, JayB, aren't qualified to comment here. But your statement is so incredibly stupid, I feel obligated to remind you that never in any of my posts (including this one) will you find me stating that climbing ability carries weight in ethical debates. Yet the number of times wankers on this site have stated that we should defer to hang-dogging 5.13 climbers regarding the legitimacy of sport climbing is......"greater than zero". This beer-induced, late-night post was simply a reaction to the notion that pope's peers are convicting him. Again, I ask, "What peers?" BTW, the summer I soloed 30 pitches before lunch (up to 5.10c at Castle Rock, Snow Creek Wall and Givler's Dome) was not twenty years ago (more like 12). Regardless, these climbers you mention who are superior to pope.....you ain't among them. Not today, not twenty years ago (if you were even out of diapers). I can out-climb you on your best day and I could out-drink you right now. Yes, but climbing is but one measure of a man, and I have no doubt life provides you with no small number of rather stark reminders of this fact rather more often than you'd like. Reeeeach....

When my mother found out, it made her cry. Real men don't make their mothers cry.

Hope you didn't graduate from high school. Moderate routes? I'll bet it would take you three days to complete the circuit I did in five hours. Have you even climbed Brass Balls? Again I ask, "What peers?"

Didja getta boner?

Cease the adulation and commence with the BJ.

You, JayB, aren't qualified to comment here. But your statement is so incredibly stupid, I feel obligated to remind you that never in any of my posts (including this one) will you find me stating that climbing ability carries weight in ethical debates. Yet the number of times wankers on this site have stated that we should defer to hang-dogging 5.13 climbers regarding the legitimacy of sport climbing is......"greater than zero". This beer-induced, late-night post was simply a reaction to the notion that pope's peers are convicting him. Again, I ask, "What peers?" BTW, the summer I soloed 30 pitches before lunch (up to 5.10c at Castle Rock, Snow Creek Wall and Givler's Dome) was not twenty years ago (more like 12). Regardless, these climbers you mention who are superior to pope.....you ain't among them. Not today, not twenty years ago (if you were even out of diapers). I can out-climb you on your best day and I could out-drink you right now.

You 3rd-classed Brass Balls? How about down Canary? And Outerspace? How about all of this and more (30 pitches) before lunch one morning? Because if my "peers" are going to "convict" me, I should probably know who they are!

Just noticed this subject line on the recent Ken Nichols thread. Joke. Got news for you kids, you ain't my peers. Not until you've done this:

Hi Pro Mountain Man. Somewhere in this thread I explained how that bolt went in. Basically I drilled the hole on lead for a 3/8" bolt but was out of Rawls. This was I think the third hole I ever drilled (and the last). Anyway, the Fixe bolt (advertised as 3/8") wouldn't fit. I knew the hole was fine but somehow the Fixe was undersized. At that point Scotty and I borrowed a Hilte from Jim Phillips and decided (with this kind of drilling power) to build an anchor with two 1/2" bolts on top and also enlarge the hole I drilled on lead, but this time on rappel. I didn't like the idea of drilling on rappel, but we did like the idea of making that bolt REALLY bomber, once we realized how important it was to the route. I didn't have a 1/2" bit for the hand drill and I didn't feel like I could free climb with the Hilte. We could have abandoned the route, but we had already drilled by hand on lead. Scotty was pretty excited about the route and so we agreed to use the Hilte to get in a 1/2" bolt. I can't remember if I drilled it or Scotty or it might have been Dave Bale who came by to give advice. The whole thing felt kind of dirty, even though I liked the result. I haven't drilled since.

Not sure who you're talking about here. Anybody wanna know my name just send me a PM.

You stole the words out of my mouth. I include Don in that statement as well. As far as the rest of it goes, there would be no routes on El Cap or Monkey Face without bolts. None. Monkey Face West FAce is 4 pitches. 3 are fully bolted, they were done on lead, with a hand drill. It really is a good route - which could have been 1 pitch ending at a rap anchor though. It was put up in the 60's. I see things like that and do not see a huge gap (although I agree that there is one) between a typical sport route at Smith. How many routes on glacier point would exist without bolts? None of the great ones which cruise to the Oasis, including the one Chouinard put up: Coonyard. So the real question is how to define style, what is really worthwhile, what is not. I do not think anybody here would be drilling on Pope about the single bolt, except it seems (until now) inconsistent with what he has been saying all along. When we see something like Dishman, we recognize obvious shit, but after that - it is a small step here or there to a true pure crack. Obviously, many of us see that bolt on Popes route as a precondition for many routes to exist. If a person like John Bachar were to do a FA as a near free solo, dragging a rope along, and then tell the rest of us you will die if you cannot free solo 5.11, does that not kind of screw everybody else? Should a first ascentionist consider others as well? PS, Pope, I congratulate you for doing what I (my opinion only here, and all of this is only OUR opinions, including yours) consider the right thing. I once retro-added a bolt (3/8" hand drilled) to the crux near the top of a 5.6/5.7 route I had done when it was suggested that many aspiring leaders would be trying it die to the grade, but that a full pitch of shit placements was a time bomb waiting for some one to blow it and auger in as their pieces ripped. Nice post Bill. You're easily the most articulate and reasonable fellow in this conversation (next to Dwayner and me). I'm not sure why anybody would believe I'm opposed to bolting. I've been very careful to criticize rap bolting, sport climbing, grid bolting, bolting next to cracks, bolting in wilderness areas, etc. I've also quite frequently argued that a commitment to ground-up ethics would eliminate many of the problems we see with excessive bolting. I've discussed routes that employ bolts that I feel improve the climbing experience. I'm guessing that participants in this conversation already know I'm not completely anti-bolt, it's just fun to believe you've caught Pope in some kind of hypocrisy. And then you can go back to enjoying your sport climbs. What's particularly disturbing is how many of you, who supposedly recognize Dishman and Exit 38 as being shitholes, who agree that Infinite Bliss never should have been drilled in a wilderness area, will actually defend this shit when somebody suggests doing something about it. Or when somebody does publicly chop a retro-bolted trad line like Dan's Dreadful Direct, it's amazing how much grief they receive. How did we get to this point?

Very, very funny. So you're saying that you really don't want your real name associated with your own posts? You do realize you are just validating the argument anyone might make for putting your real name out there, don't you? I'm actually a proponent of allowing people to continue to use "screen names" which permit relative anonymity (though the personalities do come out anyway, don't they?). But what you are saying is that you would rather not have your name associated with what you post (which should stand apart from what anyone else has to say). You're saying that you can't stand behind your own arguments, because you're embarrassed to do so. Maybe thats not what you intend to say, but read what you wrote and think about it. If you don't actually want your name associated with this debate, then don't post. Respect yourself and don't waste your time if it is so beneath you. In case I look at this stuff at work, I don't want the connection to be obvious. I assumed many participants here already know my name. I once got some grief from the cyber police at work because I had used a tiny thumb of Frank Zappa with his finger up his nose. On closer inspection, it turned out to be his middle finger. The folks monitoring my activity believed it was a photo of me flipping off the camera in my college days. Joke. Anyway, I'd be embarassed for a couple of sassy things I've said or photos I've posted, but mostly by the frequency of vulgar talk from the very participants who are scolding me for being juvenile. I never post from work and rarely look at this site, but that's the reason I use a character instead of my real name. That and to protect my family from pot-smoking maniacs on the web.

So, Dwayner and pope are responsible for being deliberately inflammatory....I think the topic of bolts lends itself to argument and passionate opinions on all sides; especially because if some of us had our way, some of your "fun" might be curtailed. But let's take a look at some of the "civil" uninflammatory discourse offered by some of the other people participating in this topic, and then perhaps you can reassess whether we're the BIG culprits: "From moderator “Off-White” in addressing “dmuja”: For a born again wannabe dwayner-lite sycophant, you sure know how to be a sport climber…and it's so cute when you act all tough 'n sh*t…What a tool. “Kevbone”, addressing “JosephH”” What an assh*le……” "What does think he is f$%king Hitler? “high-on-rock” writes: “From the casual observer, what is lacking from Don Ryan and Pope is rationality and civility. Calling people Dorks and posting Pee Wee Herman photos lowers the level of discussion far below any level that educated folks want to partake.” NOTE: Read from the beginning of the topic to this point. The discussion from me was very civil and certainly rational from my perspective…no dorks…no Pee-Wee Herman…perhaps the only naughty thing I said up to this point was that calling sport-climbs “art” was conceited. Go ahead…check it out yourself…see who’s amping it up. More from “hign-on-rock”: “gotta tell you don, it blew me away to find out that you are actually an educated person.” “The sad part is that you are the only one who does not realize that the high horse has stumbled and you are falling.” “Give us your information Pope. Come on girlfriend, be brave." JayB joins the fray: “Bill - don't distract them. With every post you coax out of them you're depriving them of a morsel of time, energy, or concentration that they'll need so bring about the closure of all sport climbing areas in the Northwest.” Ken4ord contributes: “BTW poop….” Kevbone addressing “Puma”: “Another asinine comment…..” “Well…..tough sh*t…..” Dechristo chimes in: “what a dork” A few more Kevbonisms: “......you need to get your head examined.” “Wow......Pope.....that was a bitch slap if I ever saw one. Getting crushed at your own game.....wow!” “Oh man Pope......getting worked over eh?” RuMR: “Dwayner and his sidekick poop are all about themselves...only themselves...and they will couch their attitude in a "more ethically pure" bullsh*t frame.” “Come on, quit being a dick... f&ck, man, you and dwayner just make everything f&cking so black and white...get a f&ckin' life and take up a worthier cause...” “cue raindawg with a richard simmons circle jerk poster...” RichardNoggin: “YO POOP……get a life…STFU." “…too bad you cant see through your own sh*t”. More from “high-on-rock”: “The problem with Pope and Ryan is that they try to use the anonymity of the internet to be jerks without cost. No one has a problem with the views they put forth, merely with the junior high manner through which they put forth the views, and the “holier than thou” condescending tone they use. From here on out I believe I may send their identities by PM to folks upon whom they anonymously piss. Perhaps with a lack of anonymity comes accountability, and through accountability comes temperance.” Yup...it's all Dwayner and Pope...gettin' the folks all hot and bothered and MAKING THEM express the poetry cited above. Very nice review. Eight pages of "civil" and "educated" types like high_on_bolts making all kinds of insults and then admonishing you and me for being juvenile. Looks like they shut up for the moment....maybe they were just unaware of how nasty they were making the conversation! Sorry gang, I've been working all day. Is there anybody here who really wants to know (and doesn't already know) my name? Send me a PM and I'll tell you. But please don't spread my name around in full view on this board. II'd rather not have my real name appear in conjunction with all of the snotty, juvenile stuff (like that which Dwayner just posted), just in case somebody respectable happens to be reading this. Regarding JayB's question: there are two aspects of sport climbing that make it considerably differnt than traditional slab climbing. First, sport climbs are always established on rappel (by definition). ANYBODY can "pioneer" such a route. Zero commitment, zero balls, zero skill, zero judgement required. Stopping to place a bolt is done on the way down by locking off the rope. There is complete safety. There is zero adventure. Often the bolts (being so easy to place) are placed way too close together. Often the climbs (being so easy to establish) are squeezed way too close together. Now, after the first ascent, once a line of bolts exists (on a sport climb or on a traditional slab climb), is there a difference? Generally yes (but not always). Because the bolts on sport climbs tend to be so close together you CAN often aid from one bolt to the next, or at the very least, you can climb completely out of control, throwing yourself at each move (or sequence of two moves) between bolts as though it were a bouldering problem. Great fun! But if you take that approach on most traditional slab climbs, you're going to get spanked. Traditional slab climbing requires you honestly to be able to handle the climb's difficulties (or deal with huge falls). So, even after the route is established, there is an extremely important difference in the two approaches.