Other People's Project - Ethics

[kevino]

I tried searching for this...but most results were arguments about bolting ethics...This could be a useless thread but oh well. Curious to hear what others say.

 

There is this fun looking crack at a lower wall at Vantage, there are bolts but no hangers at the top and evidence of chalk on the route. In the new guidebook it says project...The route has been like this for at least 2 years from when I first saw it.

 

I know there are 'ethics' about letting the person who developed it get a first ascent (who knows maybe it already has and they decided not to put hangers on the already drilled bolts)...I want to go try and climb it anyway, does it any of it really matter?

[sobo]

Could be the "Gorge Bois" have pinched the hangers. That was happening rather frequently at the Feathers a few years back. Almost any top anchor that could be accessed by flatlanders was missing its hangers.

 

So what I'm sayin' is that someone could have already FA'ed it, and others have kiped the hangers. Do the chalk marks go all the way up?

[kevino]

Hard to say...I didn't see any but the chalk was light so I wouldn't really use that as a determining factor...

[olyclimber]

I was reading in one of the climbing rags about how (i think it was in the Rifle in CO) this dude was climbing a route that someone was setting and had not sent yet, and found out half way up that the setter had not got it done...so he continued climbing and just "fell" right before the chains so as to maintain the FA.

[sobo]

Kevin,

Have you ever heard the story of how Price of Complacency (at Royal Columns) got its name?

I'm just sayin'...

[rob]

I don't see why you can't climb something just cause somebody else is working on it. It doesn't sound like was "developed" much. It's a trad line, right? I just has bolt anchors at top? Does this mean I can go to any wall, drill a few bolts at top and now the entire climb is MINE and nobody else can climb it until I get the time to send it myself? Phh, bullshit.

 

I don't get this whole "project" thing. Did Hillary back off of Everest because it was someone else's "project?"

 

Maybe sport climbing is different, since a lot more work goes into "developing" the climb.

 

 

[Bug]

I don't get this whole "project" thing. Did Hillary back off of Everest because it was someone else's "project?"

 

Maybe sport climbing is different, since a lot more work goes into "developing" the climb.

No.

It's just like climbing Everest.

[Peter_Puget]

OPP how can I explain it

I'll take you frame by frame it

To have y'all jumpin' shall we singin' it

O is for Other P is for People scratchin' temple

The last P...well...that's not that simple

It's sorta like another way to call a cat a kitten

It's five little letters that are missin' here

You get on occassion at the other party

As a game 'n it seems I gotta start to explainin'

Bust it

You ever had a girl and met her on a nice hello

You get her name and number and then you feelin' real mellow

You get home, wait a day, she's what you wanna know about

Then you call up and it's her girlfriend or her cousin's house

It's not a front, F to the R to the O to the N to the T

It's just her boyfriend's at her house (Boy, that's what is scary)

It's OPP, time other people's what you get it

There's no room for relationship there's just room to hit it

How many brothers out there know just what I'm gettin' at

Who thinks it's wrong 'cos I'm splittin' and co-hittin' at

Well if you do, that's OPP and you're not down with it

But if you don't, here's your membership

 

Chorus:

You down with OPP (Yeah you know me) 3X

Who's down with OPP (Every last homie)

You down with OPP (Yeah you know me) 3X

Who's down with OPP (All the homies)

 

As for the ladies, OPP means something gifted

The first two letters are the same but the last is something

different

It's the longest, loveliest, lean-- I call it the leanest

It's another five letter word rhymin' with cleanest and meanest

I won't get into that, I'll do it...ah...sorta properly

I say the last P...hmmm...stands for property

Now lady here comes a kiss, blow a kiss back to me, now tell me

exactly

Have you ever known a brother who have another like ah girl or wife

And you just had to stop and just 'cos he look just as nice

You looked at him, he looked at you and you knew right away

That he had someone but he was gonna be yours anyway

You couldn't be seen with him and honestly you didn't care

'Cos in a room behind a door no one but y'all are there

When y'all are finish, y'all can leave and only y'all would know

And then y'all could throw the skeleton bones right in the closet do'

Now don't be shocked 'cos if you're down I want your hands up high

Say OPP (OPP) I like to say with pride

Now when you do it, do it well and make sure that it counts

You're now down with a discount

 

Chorus:

You down with OPP (Yeah you know me) 3X

Who's down with OPP (Every last lady)

You down with OPP (Yeah you know me) 3X

Who's down with OPP (All the ladies)

 

This girl ah tried to OPP me

I had a girl and she knew that matter-of-fact my girl was partner's

that

Had a fall out, disagreement, yeah an argument

She tried to do me so we did it in my apartment, bust it

That wasn't the thing it must have been the way she hit the ceiling

'Cos after that she kept on coming back and catchin' feelings

I said, "Let's go my girl is coming so you gotta leave"

She said, "Oh no, I love you Treach" I said, "Now child please"

You gots to leave, come grab your coat, right now you gotta go

I said now look you to the stairs and to the stairwindow

This was a thing, a little thing, you shouldn't have put your heart

'Cos you know I was OPP, hell from the very start

Come on, come on, now let me tell you what it's all about

When you get down, you can't go 'round runnin' off at the mouth

That's rule number one in this OPP establishment

You keep your mouth shut and it won't get back to her or him

Exciting isn't it, a special kinda business

Many of you will catch the same sorta OPP is you with

Him or her for sure is going to admit it

When OPP comes, damn-- skippy I'm with it

 

Chorus:

You down with OPP (Yeah you know me) 3X

Who's down with OPP (This whole party)

You down with OPP (Yeah you know me) 3X

Who's down with OPP (This whole party)

 

Break it down!

 

 

[mattp]

The "rules" regarding first ascents and projects are just another set of made up rules like much else about rock climbing. It is not really a matter of ethics so much as whether you want to play the game.

 

I'm not saying these traditions are trivial; they are not. The taboo about poaching lines is based on the assumption that somebody has put a significant investment into the line - time, sweat, and maybe $. Sure, you could argue that this doesn't mean they own the line and you'd be right. But all other things being equal, you’d be kind of rude and selfish to jump on it. You could go out and find some other new line but somebody else has done the initial exploration and development and you would be depriving that person of an expectation that most who climb in the area would say they had a right to.

 

Also like other rules in rock climbing, there are other considerations. How long has the route sat idle? Is there reason to think the original party has given up? Last time we had this discussion on cc.com there were time limits and other factors discussed but it seemed to boil down to some kind of sniff test because everybody had different criteria and applied them differently. Still, the basic idea that we ought to let them give it their best shot at the first send if someone is putting the effort into a new line is not a bad one, in my book.

[kevino]

I don't see why you can't climb something just cause somebody else is working on it. It doesn't sound like was "developed" much. It's a trad line, right? I just has bolt anchors at top? Does this mean I can go to any wall, drill a few bolts at top and now the entire climb is MINE and nobody else can climb it until I get the time to send it myself? Phh, bullshit.

 

I don't get this whole "project" thing. Did Hillary back off of Everest because it was someone else's "project?"

 

Maybe sport climbing is different, since a lot more work goes into "developing" the climb.

 

 

Yeah...its not a sport climb like you eluded to earlier. I would say its different than a mountain because people put time and money (bear with me here) into cleaning the route and put in bolts and hangers (thats where the money came from). I've never done anything in the realm of route/crag development, hence me being unsure about this.

 

With that being said, unless the hangers were stolen, the first ascentionist didn't follow coulee ethics, in establish the route ground up...whatever if it wasn't for organic chemistry I would climbing rather than spraying.

 

EDIT: Matt, I didn't see your post being I wrote mine. I agree with your final statement. However there lies the problem is exactly how long its been unclimbed or if it has been climbed. I wouldn't really know how to contact. Because it seemed Yoder/Ford didn't know either - because when they listed other projects they put who was working on it.

Edited May 27, 2008 by kevino

[sexual_chocolate]

With that being said, unless the hangers were stolen, the first ascentionist didn't follow coulee ethics, in establish the route ground up...whatever if it wasn't for organic chemistry I would climbing rather than spraying.

 

EDIT: Matt, I didn't see your post being I wrote mine. I agree with your final statement. However there lies the problem is exactly how long its been unclimbed or if it has been climbed. I wouldn't really know how to contact. Because it seemed Yoder/Ford didn't know either - because when they listed other projects they put who was working on it.

 

I've heard before that 6 mo's is a fair amount of time to allow someone to try their FA project. I tend to agree with this time-frame. I'd say it goes for a trad line someone discovered and spent some time cleaning, to a sport climb they equipped.

 

There have been cases I've heard of where the equipper tried to assert "territorial rights" years after bolting, and this is bs.

 

It's mainly public property we're all dealing with here, and giving 6 mo's of "private rights" to someone is really just a courtesy; I think it's selfish to *expect* more.

 

btw, i don't think there is any sort of "ground up" ethic at vantage, beyond what the late bill robins tried to endorse.

[kevbone]

Kevin.....if it was someones project, there would be a fixed line hanging on it. Go climb it.......

 

Sounds like it is abandoned. You could ask around (like you are here)and see where that leads you.

 

B

[Rad]

No change in 2 years sounds like it went from 'project' to 'open project'.

 

One crazy idea: climb it and don't tell anyone about it.

[mattp]

I'm with you, sexy, except that I don't endorse a 6 month time limit in all cases (of course my favorite crag, Exfoliation Dome, is more or less inaccessible for 6 months a year and the project there is way more exploration and labor-intensive than a 100' cliff band at Vantage, so maybe that impacts my "ethics"). 4 of my 5 new crag routes took at least a couple of years and at least ten visits before anybody got the red point.

 

BUT [disclaimer=I don't know the story] 2 years without any change, or any proclamation of change from the local Senator Obama, sounds like it is abandoned to me.[/disclaimer]

 

 

[Jens]

I think for a easily accessible year round sport route that is fully equipped, 6 months is reasonable. When the bolter gets injured, it gets fuzzy.

 

I'll rehearse the daylights out of my routes on TR with directional bolts before adding the last few bolts the morning of the redpoint.

[marc_leclerc]

i beleive that if you do the climb but purposely hangdog and dont actually redpoint it shouldnt be a problem.... TR'ing is usually okay too

[billcoe]

Just read the rulebook already, pink tape on the first bolt means that you're too pussy to crank...at least thats what I think it said on P1, but I lost my book......

 

And someone kyped my pink tape too.

 

Isn't Dru a knowitall? How come he can't step up here. This lack of rulebook and finality is sooo distressing:-) Wait....I think that the judges ruling is coming in: HERE IT IS............

 

ahhh ....found it, finally, no help from Cliff Claven or Dru:...ON P38 no less of "The Climbers Rulebook" - there ya are, the judges say final final decision.

 

End of discussion done you are welcome. Rude and generally worthy of an ass kicking and an old school ostracism (see page 54 for "Old School Ostracism").

[Rad]

Bill has spoken. Post some some pics of your 'almost' ascent so we can see if the route is worth all this bother.

[pink]

Just read the rulebook already, pink tape on the first bolt means that you're too pussy to crank...at least thats what I think it said on P1, but I lost my book......

 

And someone kyped my pink tape too.

 

Isn't Dru a knowitall? How come he can't step up here. This lack of rulebook and finality is sooo distressing:-) Wait....I think that the judges ruling is coming in: HERE IT IS............

 

ahhh ....found it, finally, no help from Cliff Claven or Dru:...ON P38 no less of "The Climbers Rulebook" - there ya are, the judges say final final decision.

 

End of discussion done you are welcome. Rude and generally worthy of an ass kicking and an old school ostracism (see page 54 for "Old School Ostracism").

 

 

[kevbone]

Just read the rulebook already, pink tape on the first bolt means that you're too pussy to crank...at least thats what I think it said on P1, but I lost my book......

 

And someone kyped my pink tape too.

 

Isn't Dru a knowitall? How come he can't step up here. This lack of rulebook and finality is sooo distressing:-) Wait....I think that the judges ruling is coming in: HERE IT IS............

 

ahhh ....found it, finally, no help from Cliff Claven or Dru:...ON P38 no less of "The Climbers Rulebook" - there ya are, the judges say final final decision.

 

End of discussion done you are welcome. Rude and generally worthy of an ass kicking and an old school ostracism (see page 54 for "Old School Ostracism").

 

 

Are you saying that in this particular situation that he would be rude to climb this abandoned climb? I disagree. If someone was serious about climbing it.....they would fix a line over it.

[rob]

So, does this apply to ice climbs, too? Can I pop a v-thread ontop of an unclimbed line and call it a project for the winter?

[RuMR]

With that being said, unless the hangers were stolen, the first ascentionist didn't follow coulee ethics, in establish the route ground up...whatever if it wasn't for organic chemistry I would climbing rather than spraying.

 

EDIT: Matt, I didn't see your post being I wrote mine. I agree with your final statement. However there lies the problem is exactly how long its been unclimbed or if it has been climbed. I wouldn't really know how to contact. Because it seemed Yoder/Ford didn't know either - because when they listed other projects they put who was working on it.

 

I've heard before that 6 mo's is a fair amount of time to allow someone to try their FA project. I tend to agree with this time-frame. I'd say it goes for a trad line someone discovered and spent some time cleaning, to a sport climb they equipped.

 

There have been cases I've heard of where the equipper tried to assert "territorial rights" years after bolting, and this is bs.

 

It's mainly public property we're all dealing with here, and giving 6 mo's of "private rights" to someone is really just a courtesy; I think it's selfish to *expect* more.

 

btw, i don't think there is any sort of "ground up" ethic at vantage, beyond what the late bill robins tried to endorse.

pull your hangers, reinstall when ready to try, if succeed, you get fa, if not, pull your hangers, repeat...

 

if someone puts their own hangers on, fine...if you leave the hangers, its open...

[pink]

something fixed for over 48 hrs is considered abandoned gear and might get bootied.

[sexual_chocolate]

Are you saying that in this particular situation that he would be rude to climb this abandoned climb? I disagree. If someone was serious about climbing it.....they would fix a line over it.

 

and if the fixed line was on the climb for too long a time (over 6 mo's):

 

FREE STATIC LINE!

[G-spotter]

So, does this apply to ice climbs, too? Can I pop a v-thread ontop of an unclimbed line and call it a project for the winter?

 

that's sooo unethical rob

i bet you'd chip tool placements on an ice climb too!