David_Parker Posted October 1, 2001 Share Posted October 1, 2001 What an unfortunate end to an otherwise great day on Snow Creek Wall. Two parties headed up, Erik and Jay and I did Orbit and the Mike and John brothers did edge of space. The day couldn't have been less classic without the essential descent in darkness. Arriving at the parking lot, a Ranger was there waiting. Two other climbers just sitting in their van waiting for us (less than an hour)had already been issued a TICKET! (vs. being asked to either buy a pass or leave). John had a pass displayed in his truck, but further examination with a magnifying glass revealed it had not been punched or something like that? Apparantly the vendor needs to "activate" the ticket and because they forgot it was John's job to know this detail. Now he was facing a "fine" as well. This Ranger was beligerant and all the climbers attempted to be courteous, except maybe me. It was when he started checking ID, vehicle registrations and wilderness permits that I quietly slipped away. Next thing I potentially saw coming from this asshole was a vehicle or body search. If the forest service thinks this is the kind of enforcement that earns respect from the actual users of our public lands, they need to go back to school. If they are so intent on people paying a fee, why don't they just put a self register pay box in the parking lot just like the ones in Seattle. It is now obvious to me that the forest service is more focused on collecting fines than fees and your fee money is being consumed to fund that aggenda! It is ironic that with our government's national aggenda to spread freedom and democracy throughout the entire world, they are trying to take that away, right here at home, by making us pay to use our public lands and not allowing us to have an opinion about it. A hint to those who wish to avoid harassment. If you park in a parking lot where you need the pass and you don't have one (hopefully by choice), don't be seen in, around, next to, anywhere close to your vehicle if a Ranger is around. After climbing, when you get back to the lot, don't go straight to your car. Walk around and scope out for a Ranger. If you see one, definitely don't go to your vehicle. Arizona court precedent seems to indicate that they can try to ticket your car, but they really have to ticket you as a person. So they have to prove you were in the wilderness area AND that is your car in the parking lot! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted October 1, 2001 Share Posted October 1, 2001 do they check pass serial numbers? Cause those passes are pretty low tech and look like they would be easy to duplicate on a colour photocopier.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted October 1, 2001 Share Posted October 1, 2001 David this is almost the same exact experience I had last year. Was the officer's name Larry Inthout? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philfort Posted October 1, 2001 Share Posted October 1, 2001 Yes, they are easy to duplicate. However, keep in mind, that if you use a duplicated one, 1) the forest service won't be getting any money, and 2) they'll think you support the program. I think most people here want the opposite of that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted October 1, 2001 Share Posted October 1, 2001 Oh and one more thing: If you park your vehicle 1/4th a mile away then you will not be cited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viktor Posted October 1, 2001 Share Posted October 1, 2001 Cpt. is correct. Park on the roadway and you won't get hassled. That's what I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafael_H Posted October 1, 2001 Share Posted October 1, 2001 Yeah, so many people pay to avoid the harassment. It'd be really great if we all wrote letters AND didn't buy AND parked elsewhere, at least till they come up with some creepy shit to ticket you on the roadside... Please show the opposition, reduce the $$$ in "pass coffers". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retrosaurus Posted October 1, 2001 Share Posted October 1, 2001 Too bad you didn't take Ranger Dickhead into custody and have an impromptu trial at the Rope Up. This should be easy to set up entertainment. I would have missed work for that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted October 1, 2001 Share Posted October 1, 2001 quote: Originally posted by max: I worked on a ranger dist on the wenatchee and had the ... pleasure of working with Mr. Inthout several times. He's a jerk, and it's too bad he's in law enforcement. I've heard stories from within the FS that don't paint a pretty picture of him. Too bad he's not stuck in some soils lab titrating deer crap till he's blue in the face! You see Max registering a complaint because you received a citation may not go over well. Reason I think is that they (FS) might consider you just an angry person that was caught in the act of a violation of the law. I would suspect that this being the initial assumption that nothing would be done. Is there another way to voice your opinions or any better ideas on how to approach this dude. I agree that he was belligerent and abrasive as I have noted from last season's post I had on this same subject. In that post I warned about parking a distance away and gave similar details to David's above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Parker Posted October 1, 2001 Author Share Posted October 1, 2001 Actually, I fully intend to follow up on this whole incident including filing a complaint. I personally feel some constitutional rights were violated last night. Being that I was not actually part of the party involved (I parked my car on the road), my complaint will be coming from someone who did not recieve a citation. I do need to know who the officer was. I don't know the name of the Ranger yet. Eric, some help???? Also, fill us in on the rest of the story after I left! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted October 1, 2001 Share Posted October 1, 2001 Fuckin a dude! I bet it was the dude above man. I look forward to hearing the outcome David! Thanks for the Guiness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminal_Gravity Posted October 1, 2001 Share Posted October 1, 2001 I have a rather large collection of Forest park pass signs that I have collected. The early vintage are crappy paper ones; but the newer models are this really nice UHMW plastic. They make good anti-snow plates for your crampons. [This message has been edited by Terminal Gravity (edited 10-01-2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredrogers Posted October 1, 2001 Share Posted October 1, 2001 Good old ranger Larry. He cited me and 2 friends for sleeping inbetween the road and the Icicle creek years ago. And, insisted that we clean up after my friend who'd had a bad case of the barley flu the night before. I don't recall him being abrasive, just an officious prick and a little insensistive to the fact that he had rousted us at 6 AM. But, after all, I was breakin' the law and in the wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr._jay Posted October 1, 2001 Share Posted October 1, 2001 geez, dave, you left just as things were getting fun, too. and yes, it certainly was the good officer larry on the scene. after the initial round of harrassment was over, i didn't have my i.d. when he asked and so i told him it was indeed nick space who climbed orbit just like it said on the day permit. but i screwed up the math when i gave nick's birthday so i came clean but larry didn't find it too funny. first came the handcuffs and the threats of violence and jail time, then the shock and disbelief that i would actually lie to him, followed up by the $100 fine for misleading an officer. he then dished out another $50 fine for wating in the parking lot and everyone else got a stern talking-to. in a surprising act of goodwill larry then "activated" john's pass retroactively and he got off with a warning. all in all it added up to $150 in fines, a huge waste of time and energy and a lot of tired, bitter, outdoor enthusiasts. i don't know if will make any difference in my case, but i plan on taking my ticket before a judge just to air out some complaints in public and pretend i have a voice against the man. any legal advice would be most appreciated. fight the power! Nick Space [This message has been edited by dr. jay (edited 10-01-2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeclimb9 Posted October 2, 2001 Share Posted October 2, 2001 In my limited experience with The Man, it pays to be persistent at the next step. Your fine will be overseen by a prosecutor. Find out which court will handle your case and contact them. Find out the name of the prosecutor and contact that person directly by phone (if possible). Be sincere in expressing your ignorance of the laws. Probe whether the Ranger followed all procedures correctly. Ask to get the fine excused. If the Ranger does this often, they'll know the score better than you, and they may be very sympathetic. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upzmtn@mindspring.com Posted October 2, 2001 Share Posted October 2, 2001 For anyone interested in some very insightful precedents in Federal Cout Cases regarding the Fee "Extraction" Program, check out www.freeourforests.org As you'll see from the most recent court cased dismissed on Sept 24th, the comment above, is in fact correct-that unless you are observed 'recreating', it is illegal to ticket you or your car. Be sure to read John Veihman and Backpacker's position on this topic as well. It seems that John....ah, never mind. don't get me started!! Good luck in court. It seems winnable based on the story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon Posted October 2, 2001 Share Posted October 2, 2001 Whoa hold on here, Phil I think your confused. The whole point of not paying the Forest Pass is so they don't get the money, that is how they measure the success of the program in front of congress and what not, $$$$$$. They don't care about who is displaying them, all they care about is the mula. Isn't it illegal for them to sit by the cars waiting for you, in the same way it's illegal for the police to wait outside the bar waiting for cars to drive off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Parker Posted October 2, 2001 Author Share Posted October 2, 2001 I think I may owe my colleagues an appology for abandoning them just as the festivities in the Snow Creek parking lot were heating up. My explanation is as follows. First, I have had my share of run in with the law and spent a few nights in jail. As an adult and looking back, it was an experience that I can honestly say I am glad to have had. But as a father and single income head of a household, I can ill afford the potential trouble I saw this event heading. That combined with the funny cigarettes in my pocket lead me to the conclusion it was time to leave. Second, I have a deal with my wife I call her as soon as possible upon exiting a climb and I knew, given the late hour, she was beginning to worry. Third, if I don't make the last ferry to Bainbridge, I get to bivy on the streets of Seattle. I hope you guys understand my early departure. Jay, I can't believe you are the one who ended up with a ticket since you parked on the road. Try to find out as soon as possible where your court case is. If necessary I will be a material witness. I think I was there long enough. This fee shit is really starting to piss me off and I will not stand by. I CAN make a difference. And I will help my friend Jay if I can. You too can help Jay. Go to the Update on Fee Demo thread and get the info and make a call. Eschew the dominant paradigm! Andy Sawyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max Posted October 2, 2001 Share Posted October 2, 2001 I worked on a ranger dist on the wenatchee and had the ... pleasure of working with Mr. Inthout several times. He's a jerk, and it's too bad he's in law enforcement. I've heard stories from within the FS that don't paint a pretty picture of him. Too bad he's not stuck in some soils lab titrating deer crap till he's blue in the face! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexual_chocolate Posted October 2, 2001 Share Posted October 2, 2001 Register your complaints at the ranger station! Serious. He's OUR employee, if'n ya know what I mean. Public servant. Just make your complaints respectful and intelligent, so they have the most impact. And don't forget to call and write and email the politicians about the wilderness fee extensions. No renewal. No pay to play. No fees for using our own land! Public lands=no user fees! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted October 2, 2001 Share Posted October 2, 2001 the thing that really got me was the fact that 'buddy' would not give me his name or id. if i remember right all law enforcememt must do so at request. just as i got me id when he asked. he went as far as to threaten me to leave him alone about it. i did not get citied, but he refused to identify himself properly to me and that is my personal gripe. on the ticketing issue that is all b.s. as well and should and needs to be stopped, especially if they have the likes of him trying to enforce it. i am filing a complaint with the forest service and the wentachee county sheriff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted October 2, 2001 Share Posted October 2, 2001 It is terrible to see all this harsh stuff. Erik if you did not know the law enforcement types wear badges and sign the tickets with their names. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted October 2, 2001 Share Posted October 2, 2001 There is no law that states that law enforcement officers have to identify themselves. Most agencies have rules about being polite and that involves identifying yourself in certain situations, but often it is the form of the name on the bottom of the ticket... Demanding a name can lead to trouble, especially if someone seems to be trying to "change the subject" by demanding a name and badge number or a third person is trying to interrupt to ask for the name. Usually the best way to lessen the trouble is to go way out of your way to be polite and pretend that the officer is right in every opinion. Pay attention to the name on the nametag, then file a complaint later. Without the name, usually knowing the date, time and location will narrow it down for the supervisors. Many agencies are required to follow up on complaints and, even if nothing happens with one particular complaint, they build up until action is taken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr._jay Posted October 2, 2001 Share Posted October 2, 2001 don't sweat it, dave. i would have been there with you but i guess i'm just not sneaky enough. any chance to avoid unneccesary run-ins with the man should be taken. unfortunately my fine had nothing to do with the parking lot but that i played along with the fake name and larry was not in a good mood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Posted October 2, 2001 Share Posted October 2, 2001 Hey, Cavey, not the SPD here in Seattle now, they've taken to flaunting this in light of the WTO demonstrations, they were observed at a WTO anniversary march with badge numbers and nametags "convienently" hidden under retroflective vests or other equipment, enough so that there are suits against the SPD at this time. Refusing to identify oneself as an officer of the peace may becomming more standard operating procedure in more jurisdictions, probably on an individual basis- if a LEO is an asshole to citizens, maybe he's got more personal reasons to not to identify themselves. Sorry to all the bros that got harrassed, this truly sounds lame. Not to fan the fires of dissent but I personally believe in paying the 25 bucks a year- call me a toe the line citizen, but if the Gov says pay to play, the only rational recourse is to pay to play- they tell us how much tax we pay, it is a bummer but that's America for you- I know the timber. gas and ranchers are subsidized in the wilderness and we are not, but look at the disastarous effects a group of citizens had on Washington States budget when Tim Eyman's little "free lunch" initives got passed by the citiznry- they said, no car tabs, look what an imbroglio our state's ferries, roads, etc have become- I guess there's no money to fund highways and roads this year and the legislature doesn't go back to session until January- I know the Forest recreation parking pass fund doesn't help climbers much but at the same time 25 does not equal 150 - sorry to hear about all the hassles at the SC parking lot, dudes!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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