Ice tools vs ice axe for general mountaineering

[skimtn]

It seems like I'm noticing more people using ice tools for general mountaineering as opposed to the traditional ice axe. I'm wondering is there a shift in thinking going on, and more are starting to use tools for general mountaineering?

 

I can think of some benefits:

 

* if it gets unexpectedly icy climbing something steep you've literally got better tools for the job

* a truly steep snow climb is easier and probably safer to ascend with two tools, vs one axe

 

but I feel like it has too many disadvantages:

 

* probably very difficult to perform any kind of self arrest (not to mention you'll have to probably throw the other tool).

 

* an ice tool doesn't seem very suitable for common things such as building a deadman, performing a standing ice axe belay (assuming the head even takes a carabiner), using one of the axe assist techniques when climbing, or descending, as it's even shorter than a shorty ski mountaineering axe

 

I guess if I knew I was going to largely be climbing very steep snow 60 degrees ? that might have ice, I'd take them instead of, but not otherwise.

 

Just curious to anyone elses thoughts or observations about this.

 

cheers

 

[Jake_Gano]

Probably because most mountaineering ice axes have become so light and tinny that they're just toys for peak baggers and ski mountaineers. Something like the BD Raven is not something I'd want to climb even short sections of 50deg ice with. There are mountain axes with the weight and pick to climb alpine ice well enough, but that's not what most people seem to be buying.

[tvashtarkatena]

My pal used a BD Raven as one tool on Lib Ridge in very icy conditions. Worked fine for him. That's a decent all around choice.

 

I prefer a more curved shaft (baby!) too keep my knuckles off the ice/snow.

 

Technical tools downclimb better than standard axes. Way better. More secure down steep chutes and your knuckles don't get as frozen.

 

If you're on steep enough stuff to use two tools, you're not going to self arrest with anything. Self belay or see ya at the bottom.

 

Technical tools self arrest just fine with a little practice.

 

Shaft plunging (baby!) is the only hitch. The BD Raven's good for that, but my Petzl Aztarex works fine, too, even with little hand grip. I did add a little custom spike to the end of the shaft so I can use it as a walking stick on icy stuff - it doesn't skitter around that way.

 

[bigeo]

I agree with Tvash. that on terrain that is steep/hard enough to warrant tools you're not going to self-arrest. I disagree that ice tools work fine for that purpose. It is much harder to get the firm grip needed on the head of the tool. A full length ax is a more versatile tool for moderate alpine/glacier climbing, serving as a walking stick and balance point on steeper slopes as well as being useful for plunging and as a "deadman". I like the BD Venom as a hybrid for mixed alpine climbing. The pick angle and bent shaft make it useful for steeper ice and hard snow. The smooth shaft plunges well, while the head is easier to grip than an ice tool for self-arrest. Being lighter and shorter than a standard ax, it is better for carrying on/in the pack when on rock. Mine has the hammer for banging the odd pin or setting a nut, but you can get it with an adze as well.

[tvashtarkatena]

On sustained icier steeper stuff I find it's worth taking Quarks instead of lighter tools. More secure - deeper shaft bend - less frozen knuckles = faster travel/more enjoyable. The lighter Aztarex vibrates a bit on harder stuff and the sticks are just a little less sweet.

 

[bonathanjarrett]

Why do people buy an SUV/all wheel drive vehicle instead of a front wheel drive sedan? "Just in case". The same is true for ice tools. "If" there is a short section of alpine ice, they want to be prepared (like a true Boy Scout). The skeptic in me thinks that most do it because it makes them feel more powerful. Instead of using equipment that is best suited for 95% of the climb, they bring something that is suited for the 5% only to have something that is overkill the rest of the time.

 

[Water]

^this.

 

depending on what demographic you are talking about (and I will attest to at one time having purchased such (and subsequently sold)) a more aggressive tool than I have ever needed. More than once I have seen people with equipment that is entirely overkill for the situation. Sometimes this seems to be driven by 'it looks cool' more than anything. Dual ice tools and umbilicals going up mt hood's old chute? Seen here (lookers left of guy with red backpack). While someone else uses a trekking pole and a standard ax.

 

[christophbenells]

just like the old scout troop leader saying

 

"dress for the weather you want, not the weather you got"

[cbcbd]

There are techniques for climbing steeper ice with one ice axe. One should know them and be comfortable with it just in case. (much like one should know how to make a munter or do a dulfersitz)

 

Main disadvantage I see for going with more technical tools for "mountaineering" is the weight. You aren't really gaining much if for 20ft of a 6000ft ascent 2 tools could make it slightly faster.

 

For Lib ridge I paired a Quark and a Camp Corsa Nanotech. It was nice having the camp for 97% of the climb, which (in the conditions we found) was mostly snow.

 

 

[ScaredSilly]

The Kautz Glacier route is a good example where people take two tools when one is really needed. Sure it makes the "ice" chute easier and for some more secure but then for the rest of the route one has a short worthless tool.

 

When I have brought this point up before people have said they just do not get out enough to practice?? I have never understood that viewpoint because one can learn by just doing it (on the climb experience).

 

That said I will agree that the ice axe offerings from the major mfg are fine for ski mtneering and general mtneering but are not something for a route like the Kautz. BD and Petzl have their "update" slightly curved tool that one could use. But then I guess people think if buying a curved tool might as well buy two tools.

 

If you can find a 60cm old school axe like BD Carbon axe - I'd say buy it.

[DPS]

That said I will agree that the ice axe offerings from the major mfg are fine for ski mtneering and general mtneering but are not something for a route like the Kautz.

 

How do you figure?

[dave schultz]

I think that most people probably want to look cool by having two tools, and they also probably know that it's unnecessary.

 

Slight thread drift:

 

How about two tools and two whippets?

 

-You an use them as trekking poles

-Then shorten one up and you've got an axe (the basket is easily removable, or you can just deal with it)

-Then trade one out for a tool and you're ready for moderate alpine ice

-Then get both out and you're all set

 

Most people always bring two trekking poles, so it's of little additional weight. They also strap right into the spot that was vacated by your ice tool.

 

The biggest downside I found for the whippets was that they didn't have a good attachment point for anything technical (belay, crevasse rescue, etc) but that is easily added on with a drill bit and some cord.

 

The above combination is what I have done, I have not carried a regular ice axe since, well, I can't actually remember the last time I used a regular ice axe.

[ScaredSilly]

That said I will agree that the ice axe offerings from the major mfg are fine for ski mtneering and general mtneering but are not something for a route like the Kautz.

 

How do you figure?

 

The super light weight axe do not have the head weight for a good swing into hard ice. Which for the "ice" ramp on the Kautz is something one wants. For the rest of the route it would be fine.

 

 

How about two tools and two whippets?

 

Regardless of what tool(s) I have I use trekking poles. Never used whippets as once I get to a place that I might need to arrest I pull my axe out. That said poles regardless of what is on the grip make a huge difference on lower angle terrain. I have used a pole and shorter axe on stuff like Luethold's.

[JasonG]

The biggest downside I found for the whippets was that they didn't have a good attachment point for anything technical (belay, crevasse rescue, etc) but that is easily added on with a drill bit and some cord.

 

Huh? You would use a whippet for belaying off of, or for crevasse rescue?

 

And Water, the photo of Hood is freaky. Good reason to stay far away in summer!

[ScaredSilly]

The biggest downside I found for the whippets was that they didn't have a good attachment point for anything technical (belay, crevasse rescue, etc) but that is easily added on with a drill bit and some cord.

 

Huh? You would use a whippet for belaying off of, or for crevasse rescue?

 

This summer on the summit pinnacle of Jefferson I used my ski poles doubled up with sling around them as picket. Not something I would recommend but screws were crap and no rock pro. So better than nothing.

[montypiton]

I don't agree that most manufacturers' ice-axe offerings are good for nothing more than easy glacier work and ski-mountaineering. Nearly every simple ice-axe on the market today climbs as well as the old classic Chouinard piolet, with which masters were climbing WI6 back in the 1970s. That said, very few of us who learned to climb ice in that era would care to use such a tool on anything harder than about WI3 these days.

There are, however, many offerings among modern more aggressive tools, that I've found to work quite well for general alpinism - Petzl Aztarex and DMM Rebel, for example -- both have geometry and grips that function well on modern ice/mixed, but still plunge well, and I have found both tools perfectly functional for ice-axe belay. I have climbed on DMM Rebels since the tool was introduced, and rarely carry a standard ice-axe any more, though I sometimes carry only one Rebel. Self-arrest takes some practice, but the same must be said of the classic ice-axe. As for dead-man/T-slot style anchors, the only ice-axes I own are not enough longer than the Rebels to make an appreciable difference. A gallon-sized stuff-sack filled with snow and buried might make a more effective deadman than either tool...

for softer conditions, the ice-axe or tool usually stays on my pack anyway, in favor of trekking poles. I've never used a whippet; pole self-arrest works perfectly well without, as does daggering on firm snow (NOT ICE!)

My guess is that we're seeing more climbers using two tools where many of us would be comfortable with less because those climbers are using what they have, what they are used to, and what they are comfortable with.

using two modern tools all the time might be compared to belaying and rappelling with a modern belay/rappel brake all the time: not necessary and overkill for many situations, but more comfortable and reassuring than a body-belay or dulfersitz, and many younger climbers don't even know these techniques. Leaving the second ice-tool behind to save weight could be compared to leaving the belay-rappel brake behind for the same reason. You can easily get along without them, but the weight saving is usually negligible - why not be comfortable?

[Jason4]

I ski tour a lot more than I climb on snow and I always have one whippet when I'm touring. I've gotten so used to it as part of my kit that I grab it for slogs too and think of it as having another half axe to supplement the one that I'm carrying on my pack. I was on Eldorado last June in deep slush and was happy with a Venom in my uphill hand and the Whippet in the downhill hand collapsed most of the way down.

 

I have arrested a slide with the Whippet on frozen corn early in the morning last April. Without it I would have slid several hundred feet into trees but I managed to stop myself about 50 feet from where I lost my edge on a questionable kick turn.

[JasonG]

This summer on the summit pinnacle of Jefferson I used my ski poles doubled up with sling around them as picket. Not something I would recommend but screws were crap and no rock pro. So better than nothing.

 

You don't need to mod your whippet to deadman it.

 

I was trying to figure out what Dave was talking about when he mentioned drilling the head and threading it with cord. Sounds like a Spectre without a way to hammer it in, and not something I'd trust it in a crevasse rescue or belay scenario.

[ScaredSilly]

You don't need to mod your whippet to deadman it.

 

I was trying to figure out what Dave was talking about when he mentioned drilling the head and threading it with cord. Sounds like a Spectre without a way to hammer it in, and not something I'd trust it in a crevasse rescue or belay scenario.

 

I am not sure how anyone would deadman a whippet unless the same way one can dead man a picket (bury it in a trench horizontally)

 

If I needed to use a whippet like a specter a well slung sling would work sans any drilling. One could potentially need not hammer it by making a hole in the ice with their axe pick first. Just need to be creative and realize that what ever done is probably more psychological than physical.

[Buckaroo]

Axe choice is totally climb dependent.

 

Petzl Nomics don't work where you need to plunge a lot in snow.

 

Sometimes a sharpened stick is called for on a short to medium snow approach where you are going to do a long rock climb and carry over. Likewise some pointed rocks will work on a similar snow descent.

[dave schultz]

I was trying to figure out what Dave was talking about when he mentioned drilling the head and threading it with cord. Sounds like a Spectre without a way to hammer it in, and not something I'd trust it in a crevasse rescue or belay scenario.

 

 

If you arrest a fall with a normal axe you have a means to attach an anchor and begin the process of crevasse rescue, with the whippet there is no attachment point. I modified my whippet to give me that attachment option.

 

If you were to give someone a belay while crossing a crevasse and chose to use your axe, there is some attachment point for your biner and thus the belay, with the whippet there is no attachment point. The same modification serves both purposes.

 

These are certainly not the best practices, but making the modification provides the ability to use them, it's better to make other decisions where these are not the ones you are using. ie, having them and not needing them is better than needing them and not having them.

 

(note, that is the warrantied whippet ... with the tip actually broken off, not very inspiring, so if you have the affected lot of whippets, I'd send it in for a replacement)

[keenwesh]

I was going to say, something looks awry with yer whippet!

 

I use my nomics on snow slopes, but that's usually a snow slope on a portion of a route that contains much harder difficulties. For Rainier or just standard glacier travel I'd bring a single BD Venom or something that's more of a classic piolet. However, I have been guilty more than once of bringing two nomics on piss easy snow climbs.

[twinkletobes]

I usually just carry my traditional axe for the following reasons

 

1) Fast and light. I carry as little as possible, always.

2) Its a much better walking stick than an ice tool.

2b) So I can often leave trekking poles at home, making my pack even lighter.

3) Arrest is easier

4) Belays are better

5) Better dead-man

6) Better at digging out a place to sit, sleep, etc

4) I dont want to look like a knob carrying around a bunch of shit I don't need to use.

5) My ice tools are much more sharp and its just another annoying pokey thing to get snagged on while digging through your pack.

 

If I'm climbing something steep, I will sometimes bring my traditional axe and one ice tool because I still want all the advantages of a traditional axe on approach and low angle sections. AND with one of each I have been able to overcome vertical sections, and overhung bulges of ice using one of each.

 

Only if I am anticipating prolonged sections of very steep, hard terrain would I bring two ice tools.

 

90% of the time, I use a normal axe. If its good enough for David Roberts, its good enough for me.

[JasonG]

Thanks Dave for the more detailed explanation.