Figger_Eight Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 i consider all gear suspect and i only rely on me and my partners as the ultimate safety tool....gear is only as good as the user..... You're right my friend...however if (when) I fall on gear, I like knowing the history of the piece. That's why I don't buy used pro - it's like buying a used rope. A used ice axe...sure - ice axe failure isn't an incident you hear too much about. Cam failure is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 how so with cam faliure?? i do not think i have ever read of or heard of an accident involving where the cam itself breaks or fails?? certainly user error(which includes them pulling out(which i heard is most likely a result of a acam with poor action aka dirty)) please enlighten me. falling on cams aint bad at all....no worse then falling on a bolt... and remember belay a trad leader loose....we need the extra spring in the setup to absorb the energy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figger_Eight Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 You're right...it has more to do with user error than anything, however it so much more of a critical piece than an ice axe I wouldn't take any chances. I can stop myself with a sixty year old ice axe...but I don't think I would climb with a fifteen year old used cam - that's all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fern Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 when you reach your 16th year of climbing and are about to throw away all your cams let me know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figger_Eight Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 They're all yours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 Do you rap on 15 year old bolts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 Last time I was in there, Second Bounce didn't sell all kinds of used climbing gear. They are selective about the used climbing gear they will sell. They won't sell used rock pro, harnesses or even aiders & daisies. Second bounce is subject to the same litigation that other retail stores are. Retailers would get hit if a law suit was to happen. Look at previous cases, such as the big Chouinard lawsuit. Accident happens (lets assume gear failure) and the estate forms a suit. The lawyers go against everyone they can find with any possible connection. If a store has a policy that they accept used gear, then they are automatically forced to prove that the gear that failed wasn't tampered with by a previous owner. That is the damn society we live in, which works for the most part. I used to work in a small climbing retail store part time. We took back things like axes and crampons and such. But we didn't know what we were doing anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 (edited) You miss the point big time: the issue isn't returning goods but the dangers of purposeful customer sabotage of product. I mentioned fruit because it was damaged in the store no return at all. Clearly the number of cases of customer sabotage are few. Fewer still would be the numbers of cases of sabotage that would go undetected. Sadly the "shop" defenders are confusing "used" and returned. In the case at hand, the merch. clearly was not used. IF it is a real issue, let's see some real supporting documentation. I have sent emails to Shoreline and Mtn Tools asking what would happen if I bought crampons or a helmet through the mail and they did not fit. I will report back as to their replies are. A quick review of the Mountain Gear.com site not reveal any exclusions for returning technical equipment. And we know what REI says. Comparing an axe returned the day after Christmas (still adorn with tags) and returning used gear is just plain silly. PP PS - This policy notwithstanding FF is a very nice store and I will continue to check there first before going across the street to REI if I need stuff! Edited December 30, 2002 by Peter_Puget Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 The elitist attitudes of the low wage losers that work at F.F. made me never buy a thing from them EVER. I'd rather spend my dimes at corporate REI than support FF's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 I have heard this sentiment from others, z. So I was prepared when I went in there the first time. The two times I have been to FF people were helpful and even let me in after they had officially closed to buy a pair of crampons (including honoring the sale price that had expired the day before). Until I get pissed on there, I'd still shop there. Marmot, however, is a different story but probably suffers from the same disease that plagues the rest of Bellevue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COL._Von_Spanker Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 That disease would be suck-itus, though marmot let me in after hours one time, so i've got nothing bad to say about them (other than bellspew location). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 There seem to be jerk sales people in all stores; climbing stores don't seem anymore blessed with them than other type of store. I haven't found FF, REI, Marmot or PMS to be all that different from one another in terms of the service I receive. I usually don't ask for much help though. FF has a great selection of gear to drool over and the salespeople seem content to let me drool after I say I don't need help. Easy location to get to for me so I get there quite a bit esp. when wife wants to go to REI. REI never seems to have what I want. Marmot is my savior for equipment fondling when I am force by wife and girls to go to B Square. PMS is out of the way for me and for that reason alone I go there very infrequently. PP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 I'm with Puget -- you can have good and bad service in just about any store. It does seem silly that FF won't trade in an unused ice axe, but that policy in itself won't keep me from shopping there. Far more important to me is what they stock and whether or not the staff know what they are talking about and I think they carry good equipment and it has been many years since, in the old days when Fletcher was there, I have had somebody at Feathered Friends pitch me a load of bullshit. Watch out for the quality control on their down products, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 I have worked in outdoor retail for many years. I would rather the retailers NOT take gear back, in principle, to make consumers more thoroughly research their purchases, than have the current "suck up" return policies in place. Good that I am not a policy maker, then. Retail sales people are there to help you make choices, and if you don't utilize their knowledge (which is CONSIDERABLE at FF, much lower at REI!) then thats your problem. Until all or any of you have worked in outdoor retail, and have dealt with the customer services issues personally (some are legitimate but MOST ARE IDIOTIC!), you will only know one half of the coin and will remain the bitching consumers that you are, with no understanding what lies behind something as simple/complex as these return policies. No one deserves the ignorant abuse that customers can heap on for the small amount of coin that outdoor retail pays. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 Alex - Get out a bit more in the world. Customers are a pain in the rear all over to think the OR industry unique is absurd. Go have a and relax! PP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 Alex it's like that in all retail bs. I used to do returns every day in a grocery store. As much shit as people give for groceries I would expect more for overpriced hype gear. If you can't deal with a customer get outta the business. I suspect some of you toot for Feathered Friends because you know or did know someone tthat worked there. I say the argument has legitimate points. But I dont really care. I think the only thing I ever bought there was a guidebook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_a Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 (edited) I gotta put in my two cents on this issue...I agree with the concept of having a no returns policy on any and all climbing gear..if a shop has the funds to accept climbing gear and dispose of it rather than returning it to the shelves, thats fine, but most shops don't have that kind of cash. I worked at a climbing shop for four years in college and dealt with folks who wanted to return gear. I think that as long as there is a sign stating the return policy, or even better, the salesperson should remind the shopper of the policy, it is responsibility of the consumer to know exactly what gear they want before they buy it. There is no reason any consumer should have to buy gear that even has the slightest chance of damage from gear leaving the store with another customer and being returned. However impersonal it may be to refuse returns on even something like an axe, shops have to cover their asses from lawsuits and protect their other customers. I'm sorry you're stuck with an axe that FF won't accept...perhaps they would be willing to put up an 'axe for sale' sign in their shop, not just outside their door with the other signs, and maybe you can get most of your money back, or FF would be willing to sell you a second axe at a discount...just a thought, probably wishful thinking. Edited December 30, 2002 by pete_a Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 Peter and Capt, I never meant to imply that it wasnt like that elsewhere. I just don't like bellyaching from people who havent been on the other side of the fence. I think dealing with customer service issues makes you a much more throughtful and appreciative consumer, just like working in the restaurant biz might make you a better tipper. Cheers, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodchester Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 Somebody called Daler a"corporate stooge." Get a grip. I've known daler casually for years. He is a no BS kind of guy, and noy way in hell is he a corporate stooge. Quite the name calling....its just not cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crackbolter Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 Beating the dead horse again? I remember this topic from a few months ago. I seem to see a reoccurring attitude about the treatment people recieve when dealing with Feathered Friends Retail. There is no excuse for ignorance though. If you do not know the return policy when making a conscous decision of purchasing a product that could be subject to no returns, you have caused the problem yourself. You can not blame a company who probably doesn't have enough money to afford lawyers to defend a liability claim when they say "no" for a return on a piece of climbing gear. It seems like the retail store was quite polite even though they had to say no so you don't have much to complain about. Enforcing a policy is not poor treatment to loyal customers, it is simply watching their ass so they can stay in business. I suggest you folks quit whining. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoker Posted December 31, 2002 Share Posted December 31, 2002 I notice the climber that began this rant has had nothing more to say... even though a few folks have enquired about taking the axe off his hands. He was simply ranting.... just like me I went to FF to buy a light weight down bag many yrs back. (they have a reputation as a good place to get down gear, rightly or wrongly deserved) When I got there I was told they had none of what I was looking for, and hadn't for many months ( I was hoping to see the bag that had a draw string on the foot for moving around with out having to get out of the bag) not only that but I was informed that they didn't keep different styles on the floor. But I was welcome to order anything I liked, same as the rest of the free world. I bought a great down bag else where. I dont believe that I have to be on the other side of the counter to understand how much climbing shops want my cash. Usually it is demonstrated to me in person. Either through the flyers sent to me asking to buy the latest stuff on the shelves or by the gumbus behind the counter. I was in Marmot last spring with a pocket full of "change" but the guy "helping" with the ropes wasn't so I took my bread elsewhere. Thats life. I bought a great Farmer John from FF a few years ago. They do have some great gear, if you can get through their BS. If you mark many shops off the list of where you'll spend your cash, all that will be left is cyber-shopping. Oh what a drag....no hassles, traffic, parking or dicks like me to deal with. And it comes straight to my door!! Oh what ever will I do with myself now that I have no sales people to HARASS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted December 31, 2002 Share Posted December 31, 2002 Here is a bad experience that I had at FF about three years ago. I was taking an avalanche safety course which included training in beacon searches. I did not own a beacon at the time, so I reserved one to rent from FF for $10 paid in advance. When I went in on the appointed day to pick up the rental I was told, "oh, we just rented it out to someone else ten minutes ago", sorry dude, here's your money back". It was too late to go elsewhere to rent as they were all out to other people in the class. I had to make a last minute purchase of a beacon at Swallow's Nest. I was steaming mad. It was another two years before I cooled down enough to set foot in that store again. I probably bad-mouthed them to dozens of people. It just doesn't pay to screw your customers like that. Was it Einstein who once said in so many words that it takes ten words of praise to make up for one word of criticism? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jens Posted December 31, 2002 Share Posted December 31, 2002 Speaking of Swallow's Nest, did they go belly up for not enough shoppers or what? They had a lot of floor space. I bet the rent was pretty high. An employee told me that becasue they weren't selling skis, they were missing out on a cash cow. I always seemed to get awesome service at that place. ___________ Does anybody ever go downtown to North Face? I haven't been there in ages due to parking and access. Are they carrying much gear in this day and age? ______ Cascade Crags in Everett carries a LOT of gear. Sorry about the thread drift guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted December 31, 2002 Share Posted December 31, 2002 wHAT A SLUT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted December 31, 2002 Share Posted December 31, 2002 just movin' over to spray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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