Had Your Flu Shots Yet?

[rob]

How come LOTS of folks get the flu vaccine yet also get sick with the the flu?

 

OMG! LOTS????

 

Ya.....Lots. But if it is only one person....still makes no sense.

 

Why is that? Can anyone explain this?

 

I'm sure Joseph can explain it more technically than me, but basically the flu vaccine is rapidly mutating. This is why you need a new vaccine every year (for this virus). The vaccine is created each year to cover a few basic strains that they think will hit that following season, but there are other strains that are not covered, and sometimes the basic strains they accounted for have changed, so the vaccine has reduced effectiveness when this happens.

 

Also, some people get the vaccine after they've already been infected (but not symptomatic yet). Or they get infected before the vaccine becomes effective (it takes about 2 weeks for the immunity to form).

[KaskadskyjKozak]

How come LOTS of folks get the flu vaccine yet also get sick with the the flu?

 

Science is hard!

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Why is that? Can anyone explain this?

 

Ask your doctor. Ask someone at whatever place administers the flu vaccine nearest to you.

 

 

[matt_warfield]

How come LOTS of folks get the flu vaccine yet also get sick with the the flu?

 

Science is hard!

 

Getting a flu shot involves getting a mini flu to prevent a mega flu. Ask the experts. This is not my area of expertise but I know that much.

 

[glassgowkiss]

Why is that? Can anyone explain this?

 

Ask your doctor. Ask someone at whatever place administers the flu vaccine nearest to you.

 

 

wrong, pharmacists know more about medications and vaccinations then MD's. So actually, if you want some answers talk to people who know.

 

[rob]

How come LOTS of folks get the flu vaccine yet also get sick with the the flu?

 

Science is hard!

 

Getting a flu shot involves getting a mini flu to prevent a mega flu. Ask the experts. This is not my area of expertise but I know that much.

 

I'm pretty sure this is not an accurate statement.

[genepires]

I thought the flu vaccine was basically a shot of the dead viruses. The body senses them and prepares for them even though the virus can not do anything about it.

 

But this must be wrong because there would be nothing negative about that kind of treatment.

 

Without looking back over the train wreck of 11 pages, what part supposedly causes autism? Mercury or other preservative?

[AlpineK]

Jenny McCarthy says it does. She's like a hot blonde scientist, so it must be true

[JosephH]

I'm sure Joseph can explain it more technically than me, but basically the flu vaccine is rapidly mutating. This is why you need a new vaccine every year (for this virus). The vaccine is created each year to cover a few basic strains that they think will hit that following season, but there are other strains that are not covered, and sometimes the basic strains they accounted for have changed, so the vaccine has reduced effectiveness when this happens.

 

Also, some people get the vaccine after they've already been infected (but not symptomatic yet). Or they get infected before the vaccine becomes effective (it takes about 2 weeks for the immunity to form).

I dunno, that was pretty good. Probably easier for folks to just head on over to GlobalSecurity.org for a good flu overview and follow the "Further Reading" links on the right and they'll walk you through the whole flu topic in fairly good detail. Or you can check out Science Blogs for a [short] four part look at the science.

 

But in general, the basic nightmare of preventing infections or thwarting poisons has to do with attempting to gum up the works of the molecular surface binding interactions between various human cell membrane features and pathogenic and toxicological mechanisms for binding to them. The problem with influenza, malaria, HIV, etc. is the rate of mutation of the viral mechanisms which dock to the various cell membrane features subject to attack. But in the end it really does conceptually almost boil down to this simple:

 

 

At their simplest, viruses are a [binding] sheath (caspid) with a DNA or RNA (flu) delivery payload (and do take note of those 'HA' spikes in this diagram):

 

 

The genomes of influenza A viruses consist of eight negative-strand RNA segments. Recent studies suggest that influenza viruses are able to specifically package their segmented genomes into the progeny virions. Segment-specific packaging signals of influenza virus RNAs (vRNAs) are located in the 5' and 3' noncoding regions, as well as in the terminal regions, of the open reading frames. How these packaging signals function during genome packaging remains unclear.

 

So fighting viruses (as well as bacteria, cancer, and toxins) is basically all about doing battle around the [insanely clever] cellular binding interactions:

 

 

Current influenza vaccines are like chasing a rabbit in that we're always behind and guessing because the viral binding mechanisms are always mutating. What we'd really like is a 'universal' vaccine where human antibody production could be targeted to recognize and bind with non-mutating aspects of influenza binding mechanisms/proteins which would hopefully be shared across all or most influenza strains.

 

To see the problem in more detail, take a look at a close up of one of those 'HA' spikes from the second diagram above (the white and red are one of those virus HA spikes; the blue, green, and yellow whirligig deals are human antibody proteins 'attacking' the virus by binding to specific features of its HA spike - the red bits):

 

 

Surface representation of influenza hemagglutinin (white) with the newly identified sites of antibody vulnerability colored red. Each binding site is unique and targeted by a different vaccine antibody. CR8033 (blue) binds to the head of HA, CR8071 (green) just below the head, while CR9114 (yellow) binds the stem. The stem binding CR9114, with its cross-neutralizing ability for influenza A and B viruses, provides proof of principle that a universal flu vaccine may be achievable.

 

And the idea of the vaccine as a 'miniflu' to prevent a 'megaflu' isn't all that bad a way to represent what we're trying to achieve in the process of vaccination - provoking an an immune system response to spur the production of specific antibodies which will attack the flu strains targeted by the vaccine. It's conceptually fairly straightforward enough but, unfortunately, is some serious rocket science in execution of both the basic research and vaccine development and production.

 

With regard to the $9 billion spent on vaccine programs - please - that's 12.5 days of war at the going rate of $720 million per day. And what else could your warbucks buy every 12.5 days?

 

* 1,050 New Elementary Schools

* 155,975 Elementary School Teachers

* 1,192,050 Head Start Places for Children

* 14,423,075 Children with Free School Lunches

* 436,300 Four-Year Scholarships for University Students

* 2,044,062 People with Health Care

* 5,294,112 Children with Health Care

* 81,025 Families with Homes

* 15,929,200 Homes with Renewable Energy

 

 

So let's not bemoan the vaccine programs - they're a veritable steal and at least have a shot at protecting you personally from something compared to the money we've been spending on war of late.

[billcoe]

Another point worth noting is that there are many many strains floating and evolving around the world at any one point. They try and pick what they perceive will be the one which will evolve into the nastiest/deadlyist and/or most prevalent/widespread and produce a vaccine for that. The lag time to get it to market often means that the flu that took you down AFTER you had your flu shot is a different version and wasn't even considered a threat when they were developing the vaccine for the (other) strain of flu (that wasn't the one which infected you) that they choose. It takes 6 months to develop the vaccine and then they need time to get it out there.

 

For myself, never had a flu shot. However, this is due to laziness and the feeling that I have a slight preference on letting my body do the work that I'm aware of (being in the military as a pup realistically means that they pumped one into me at some point, but they never told me that specifically if it did occur).

 

My mom is currently 91, and has had EVERY annual flu shot publicly available for the last 60 some odd years. She never gets the flu. Any flu. Ever.

[JosephH]

...there are many many strains floating and evolving around the world at any one point...

 

Bill, absolutely right, We actively monitor SE China and northern Vietnam for emerging flu strains because on farms in in that region humans, chickens, pigs, and ducks live in [very] close daily proximity. Best way to think about it is to view domestic pigs and chickens as viral 'mixing pots' where multiple strains of wild, migratory waterfowl and human influenza can get together and swap genetic spit to produce novel strains which can jump ship in both directions, some of which we really aren't used to and can provoke violent immune system responses (like this year's strain which is provoking a 'medium' response):

 

[ P.S. And it's kind of a downer aspect of the whole urban 'farmer' chicken fad... ]

 

And I dunno about the whole 'man apart' thing though. I get the general, 'free solo' perceptual appeal, but in my case, having some respiratory weakness that leaves me prone to pneumonia, I get every flu and pneumonia shot that comes along like clockwork. But, like your grandmother, the smart money - i.e. those personally most familiar with the disease science and treatment, including the harshest scientist critics of the vaccines program administration - is way, way on the side of getting the vaccines, not avoiding them. And this year? Man, this year I'd run, not walk, to get the vaccine while there's still some available.

[glassgowkiss]

Joseph, you can't vaccinate your way out of this. If overprescription of antibiotics in the 70's and 80's, this brings the "don't fuck with nature" to a whole different level.

[ivan]

love that it's the metrosexual yuppie-fuck getting the chop here

[matt_warfield]

Shit dudes, by the time we get done debating this issue we and our kids will all be dead of old age or accident at home or car accident or cancer or something else.

 

I can't wait for prostate cancer to come up for any older man here that sprays but can't spray.

 

How about Beckey in JTree doing three pitches and he is still probably after your gf or wife.

 

I'll bet he hasn't had a flu shot or testosterone pill or energy shot in around 80 yrs. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Edited January 14, 2013 by matt_warfield

[rob]

Dude, you can't wait until someone gets prostate cancer? Kinda fucked up

[matt_warfield]

Rob,

 

My point is that there are so many imprtant health issues that spending this much time on this site on this issue has to be a "flu virus cliff". We have so many other health issues to attend to on a climbing website it must give one pause.

 

 

[matt_warfield]

Dude, you can't wait until someone gets prostate cancer? Kinda fucked up

 

And check it out dude, but just about all males get it or at least prostate enlargement before the end. Check your facts before insulting somebody.

 

But I'm pretty sure somebody has told you not to insult people that know shit online because the whiplash is ready.

Edited January 14, 2013 by matt_warfield

[JosephH]

Joseph, you can't vaccinate your way out of this. If overprescription of antibiotics in the 70's and 80's, this brings the "don't fuck with nature" to a whole different level.

Again, the ignorance is palpable in the attempt to tie the two issues.

[AlpineK]

Over-prescription for sure. Another factor is folks starting a prescription cycle given by a doctor then quitting the cycle based on feeling better not when the prescribed cycle is over.

[kevbone]

I have never nor will I ever get a flu vaccination.

[rob]

I have never nor will I ever get a flu vaccination.

 

Well, at least you're open-minded about it.

[kevbone]

I have never nor will I ever get a flu vaccination.

 

Well, at least you're open-minded about it.

 

 

Yep....just like you are about Obama.

[rob]

I have never nor will I ever get a flu vaccination.

 

Well, at least you're open-minded about it.

 

 

Yep....just like you are about Obama.

 

Meh. I'm actually not that in love with the guy, but whatev

[kevbone]

I have never nor will I ever get a flu vaccination.

 

Well, at least you're open-minded about it.

 

 

Yep....just like you are about Obama.

 

Meh. I'm actually not that in love with the guy, but whatev

 

 

You vote for him....you love him.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

 

 

You vote for him....you love him.

 

Go Ron Paul!