born again christians

[keenwesh]

I was walking though the mall today on the way to sit in library and look at climbing forums when I was distracted by a man spewing vitriolic hatred about homosexuals and fornication outside of marriage in the middle of the MSU mall. He was surrounded by a crowd of mostly rational human beings arguing that his hatred was not fitting for a man of god, but there were 2 people who had legitimate tears in their eyes crying for us "unrepentant sinners".

 

I am an atheist. If someone doesn't see the miracle that modern science has enlightened our understanding of the world we live in I honestly believe that they are ignorant and unwilling to look at the facts in a rational light. However, as long as an individual is trying to lead a good life and better the experience of others they get props in my book, regardless of their religious leanings.

 

Human beings share 89% of our DNA with zebra fish, 95% with mice. In my eyes that verifiable fact is so much more powerful than some instantaneous creation 6000 years ago by a supremely intelligent being.

 

How can people proclaim "love" and "salvation" in such a arbitrary and negative light? How do you sleep at night preaching love while simultaneously telling people that the love they feel for someone of the same gender isn't actually love? It's the same as that scene in Mean Girls, except instead of a hilarious satire of high school cliques it is a fully grown man preaching "truth".

[Crux]

Once there was a day in a tavern, when guys like that proved more reasonable, when it came right down to it. Funny how shopping malls can bring out the worst in us.

[denalidave]

Hey man, it's OK, Jesus still loves you.

[yikes]

The assumption that the scientific method reveals Truth is a belief. You (and I) take it on faith. How different are we from the born-agains really? Do you believe there is no proselytizing in science? How about exaggeration of observations? Corruption? Politically-influenced decision making? Blindfolding? The list goes on.

[Crux]

One says, "I'm right, you're wrong, no matter what."

The other says, "By the evidence, I believe this true; but it's falsifiable, and this is how."

[glassgowkiss]

Truth is a belief. You (and I) take it on faith. How different are we from the born-agains really?

Quite different. Science is empirically proven and each of the rules can be reproduced with 100% accuracy during an experiment. This is what differs science from religion, where some drunk can hear what a friggin hat is telling him or some other imaginative bullshit.

[Pete_H]

I doubt most born again kristians are that extreme. I think what you mean to have said was Evangelicals. Those folks are usually pretty fucked up.

[Pete_H]

I myself am a White Rastafarian. Praise Jah.

[yikes]

Truth is a belief. You (and I) take it on faith. How different are we from the born-agains really?

Quite different. Science is empirically proven and each of the rules can be reproduced with 100% accuracy during an experiment. This is what differs science from religion, where some drunk can hear what a friggin hat is telling him or some other imaginative bullshit.

 

99.9% not 100%.

...and empiricism is a theory that claims our sensory experience is the basis of Truth. How do we know were not living in the Matrix?

http://phys.org/news/2012-10-real-physicists-method-universe-simulation.html

[yikes]

One says, "I'm right, you're wrong, no matter what."

The other says, "By the evidence, I believe this true; but it's falsifiable, and this is how."

 

Exactly my point. I'm agnostic for that reason.

 

 

[ivan]

I'm agnostic for that reason.

 

i'm a paranoid agnostic - i'm NOT certain there's a higher power, a Dig Dude w/ a beard lazing about in a comfy robe on fluffy cloud somewhere, but IF there is one, he's a cock-sucker and surely out to get me

[yikes]

I'm agnostic for that reason.

 

i'm a paranoid agnostic - i'm NOT certain there's a higher power, a Dig Dude w/ a beard lazing about in a comfy robe on fluffy cloud somewhere, but IF there is one, he's a cock-sucker and surely out to get me

 

All the more reason to pick a cock-sucker and pray to him. Hedge your bets.

[matt_warfield]

Every day I thank God that I am an atheist.

 

And God bless the big bang theory and carbon dating and much more science and physics disproving the seven days of creation by Him.

Edited October 20, 2012 by matt_warfield

[keenwesh]

I ain't gonna pray to no cock sucker. Cocksuckers can't get into heaven anyway.

[matt_warfield]

That's not what the Catholics think. However mostly those sinning pastors are having theirs sucked by children.

 

And I agree with Bob. We can scientifically prove so many things.

 

Otherwise, here is my approach:

 

-If there was one valid religion, why are so many geographically and ethnicly segregated.

 

-Why do so many religions want to impose their ideas on others.

 

-What is the matter with Native Americans worshiping the sun, moon, and terrain or Buddhists living in monasteries. Neither bother anyone.

 

-What God would allow cancer and terrorism and criminals and etc.

 

-The Bible is just a book.

 

Edited October 20, 2012 by matt_warfield

[prole]

I was walking though the mall today on the way to sit in library and look at climbing forums...

 

Here was your first mistake. Dumbass.

[ivan]

 

-The Bible is just a book.

no! it's a COOK BOOK!!!

[JayB]

The assumption that the scientific method reveals Truth is a belief. You (and I) take it on faith. How different are we from the born-agains really? Do you believe there is no proselytizing in science? How about exaggeration of observations? Corruption? Politically-influenced decision making? Blindfolding? The list goes on.

 

Not really a rebuttal, but your post made me remember this bit from Hume...

 

“Where am I, or what? From what causes do I derive my existence, and to what condition shall I return? ... I am confounded with all these questions, and begin to fancy myself in the most deplorable condition imaginable, environed with the deepest darkness, and utterly deprived of the use of every member and faculty.

 

Most fortunately it happens, that since Reason is incapable of dispelling these clouds, Nature herself suffices to that purpose, and cures me of this philosophical melancholy and delirium, either by relaxing this bent of mind, or by some avocation, and lively impression of my senses, which obliterate all these chimeras. I dine, I play a game of backgammon, I converse, and am merry with my friends. And when, after three or four hours' amusement, I would return to these speculations, they appear so cold, and strained, and ridiculous, that I cannot find in my heart to enter into them any farther.”

[ivan]

 

“Where am I, or what? From what causes do I derive my existence, and to what condition shall I return? ... I am confounded with all these questions, and begin to fancy myself in the most deplorable condition imaginable, environed with the deepest darkness, and utterly deprived of the use of every member and faculty.

 

Most fortunately it happens, that since Reason is incapable of dispelling these clouds, Nature herself suffices to that purpose, and cures me of this philosophical melancholy and delirium, either by relaxing this bent of mind, or by some avocation, and lively impression of my senses, which obliterate all these chimeras. I dine, I play a game of backgammon, I converse, and am merry with my friends. And when, after three or four hours' amusement, I would return to these speculations, they appear so cold, and strained, and ridiculous, that I cannot find in my heart to enter into them any farther.”

in other words, there ain't no bummer a hummer n' a hotdog can't handle

[denalidave]

It seems pretty arrogant and naive to think that just because man split the atom, went to the moon/mars, and, more impressively, somehow cojoled Kevbone through a college edjumakation that God does not exist. I like the old adage of finding a swiss watch on a deserted island... Surely, whoever found said watch would realize it did not just happen "randomly" and that the pieces just fell together with no thought or design. How much more intricate and complicated is this world we live in and this strange thing we call life? Hell, even Einstien believed in God. Stephen Hawkings is just prolly still pissed of at God for being stuck in a wheelchair. Please remind me again how we proved God does not exists and why???

 

As far as the "How can a god allow cancer, death, suffering, yada yada", how can you have the yin w out the yang? Ther will always be opposing forces in nature. I guess that is how God designed it.

 

Personally, I do believe in God. Afterall, we even have our own "supreme diety" right here on CC.com - trashie and his church of Trasktholisism to keep the spray world in "perfect" order.

 

As far as who/what "God" is, I prolly won't know for sure till I take the big ride into the sky. In the meantime, I'm happy to trust my heart and sole to that power of the universe. God is available to anyone who seeks God out. Maybe not in the way you want and/or expect, but there none the less.

 

However, I despise organized religion, don't even get me started on the Catholics or Mormons... Besides greed and lust, religion seems to be the cause of most of society's ills.

 

God and science can coexists, just get rid of the damn religons and my god is the only god crap that is at the root of most of the fighting going on throughout history.(IMHO)

[keenwesh]

It seems pretty arrogant and naive to think that just because man split the atom, went to the moon/mars, and, more impressively, somehow cojoled Kevbone through a college edjumakation that God does not exist. I like the old adage of finding a swiss watch on a deserted island... Surely, whoever found said watch would realize it did not just happen "randomly" and that the pieces just fell together with no thought or design. How much more intricate and complicated is this world we live in and this strange thing we call life? Hell, even Einstien believed in God. Stephen Hawkings is just prolly still pissed of at God for being stuck in a wheelchair. Please remind me again how we proved God does not exists and why???

 

As far as the "How can a god allow cancer, death, suffering, yada yada", how can you have the yin w out the yang? Ther will always be opposing forces in nature. I guess that is how God designed it.

 

Personally, I do believe in God. Afterall, we even have our own "supreme diety" right here on CC.com - trashie and his church of Trasktholisism to keep the spray world in "perfect" order.

 

As far as who/what "God" is, I prolly won't know for sure till I take the big ride into the sky. In the meantime, I'm happy to trust my heart and sole to that power of the universe. God is available to anyone who seeks God out. Maybe not in the way you want and/or expect, but there none the less.

 

However, I despise organized religion, don't even get me started on the Catholics or Mormons... Besides greed and lust, religion seems to be the cause of most of society's ills.

 

God and science can coexists, just get rid of the damn religons and my god is the only god crap that is at the root of most of the fighting going on throughout history.(IMHO)

 

I'd argue the opposite. It seems pretty arrogant to believe that humans are somehow special and the entire universe, eukaryotes, bacteria, archea, everything, was created for human beings.

 

We live on a tiny rock hurtling through space around one star among billions of trillions of stars. We're special? I don't think so, we're just the first creatures to become self aware. We're a accident, an experiment without a scientist that by some stroke of luck managed to progress this far. Who knows what's gonna happen next, but I don't see anyone saving us besides ourselves. In the mean time I'm going to continue climbing rocks ( a incredibly pointless exercise, and yet I get so much from it)

 

The organisms that witness the end of the earth will be as different from us as we are from those first lifeforms that managed to thrive in the primordial soup ~3 billion years ago. That is a mind trip and really fascinating to think about, at least to me.

[denalidave]

It seems pretty arrogant and naive to think that just because man split the atom, went to the moon/mars, and, more impressively, somehow cojoled Kevbone through a college edjumakation that God does not exist. I like the old adage of finding a swiss watch on a deserted island... Surely, whoever found said watch would realize it did not just happen "randomly" and that the pieces just fell together with no thought or design. How much more intricate and complicated is this world we live in and this strange thing we call life? Hell, even Einstien believed in God. Stephen Hawkings is just prolly still pissed of at God for being stuck in a wheelchair. Please remind me again how we proved God does not exists and why???

 

As far as the "How can a god allow cancer, death, suffering, yada yada", how can you have the yin w out the yang? There will always be opposing forces in nature. I guess that is how God designed it.

 

Personally, I do believe in God. Afterall, we even have our own "supreme diety" right here on CC.com - trashie and his church of Trasktholisism to keep the spray world in "perfect" order.

 

As far as who/what "God" is, I prolly won't know for sure till I take the big ride into the sky. In the meantime, I'm happy to trust my heart and sole to that power of the universe. God is available to anyone who seeks God out. Maybe not in the way you want and/or expect, but there none the less.

 

However, I despise organized religion, don't even get me started on the Catholics or Mormons... Besides greed and lust, religion seems to be the cause of most of society's ills.

 

God and science can coexists, just get rid of the damn religons and my god is the only god crap that is at the root of most of the fighting going on throughout history.(IMHO)

 

I'd argue the opposite. It seems pretty arrogant to believe that humans are somehow special and the entire universe, eukaryotes, bacteria, archea, everything, was created for human beings.

 

We live on a tiny rock hurtling through space around one star among billions of trillions of stars. We're special? I don't think so, we're just the first creatures to become self aware. We're a accident, an experiment without a scientist that by some stroke of luck managed to progress this far. Who knows what's gonna happen next, but I don't see anyone saving us besides ourselves. In the mean time I'm going to continue climbing rocks ( a incredibly pointless exercise, and yet I get so much from it)

 

The organisms that witness the end of the earth will be as different from us as we are from those first lifeforms that managed to thrive in the primordial soup ~3 billion years ago. That is a mind trip and really fascinating to think about, at least to me.

I never said it was all created for us, rather, it is far out of our grasp of comprehension to say that, in fact, there is no god. More power to you though. If you seek God out, God will be revealed, at least in my own personal experience. Which, BTW, has no shortage of pain and suffering along the way. Maybe not in the way or time you want or expect, but God is in every fabric of life.

 

Well, yes, as far as humans know so far, we are incredibly special. I don't doubt there MAY be other forms of life in other galaxies, but so far, we are the masters of our domain. And what do "we" do with that, kill and hate each other over spoils and "my god is better than your god" crap. Again, it seems a pretty incredible accident that this ball hurling through space just happened to give us (and all other forms of life) the opportunity to be alive. Here on our own planet, who else is so self aware besides us humans? I do believe animals can, and possible do have souls, but do they have the same free will of becoming virtually anything they can imagine? I doubt it but am open to evidence to the contrary.

 

On and anecdotal note, go look into the many documented cases of "after death experiences". In virtually every case I have heard or read about, they encounter "God" on some level or another, regardless of religious background. In my own personal experience as a child, a close friend of our family died on the operating table for several minutes and he personally told me of his experience going to "heaven" and then being sent back home. I enjoy watching the documentary series "I survived, death and beyond", or whatever the name is.

 

Then again, if there is a God, master of the universe, we might have to reconsider all of our own actions and shortcomings. It is a lot easier to believe we are the supreme rulers of our own universe and will not have to worry about the hereafter and eternity. NO, I'm not saying anyone is going to hell, just saying that one must be pretty smart to know all that is out there and be so sure that no God exists. Atheism takes just as much "faith" (believing in the unknown/unprovable) as any other "religion", whether you are willing to admit that or not. (IMHO)

[tvashtarkatena]

One doesn't have to know all that is out there to know what isn't. Atheism requires no faith whatsoever. Quite the opposite: all it requires is not giving a shit about the patently ridiculous. If I had a nickle for every Christian who tried to tell me what being an atheist is all about - but you don't get to do that unless you actually are one, no?

 

This atheist can certainly tell you what Kristianity is all about, however. I was one for 20 years. Glad that lie is over.

 

God is whatever the believer wants him to be. Autistics believe that God simply keeps molecules in stuff in their proper place. There are no people involved at all in their theology. Radical muslims believe that God is vengeful. Born agains believe the God hates fags. Universalists believe that God loves fags. Every God fearin' monkey believes that God is on their side, even when they're at war with other God fearin' monkeys. Hmmm. Wonder where the pattern is here.

 

And yeah, I had a friend who flatlined on the gurney, too (haven't we all? They seem invariably to enter into this kind of discussion at some point). He didn't see jack. Of course, he's an atheist, so that follows, eh?

 

During the movie "Touching the Void" the interviewer asks Joe Simpson if he thought about praying during his 5 day ordeal. "No". The guy in back of me got up and walked out. I wonder if he was offended by Mr. Simpson's lack of gratitude towards God for pulling his ass out of the eternal dumpster. I just saw a guy who pulled himself out using the power of human will, which never ceases to impress me. Sprinkling magical Goddy dust on such a feat to 'explain it' is as insulting as it is infantile.

 

Finally, I believe the concept of the soul is our greatest conceit (not lack thereof). What, starts die, galaxies die, the universe dies, but we live forever?

 

Bitch, pul-eaze. Ya die, ya rot - just like everything that ever was. Seems perfectly fair to me.

 

 

[olyclimber]

Wow, you were a Christian for 20 years????

[olyclimber]

I'm just trying to relate. I was a Lutheran for about 1 year, when I was in high school. But it was mainly about the girls. All the pretty girls went to the Lutheran church!