selkirk Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 (edited) And people choose to not have health car all the time....most of these people are young and think they are immune to injury. Or they just cant afford it. If they wanted to raise my taxes by $3000 a year and have socialistic hospitals (like police and fire) then I would be all for it. Unfortunately capitalism gets in the way. I don't think that's true. People delay healthcare (and choose not purchase insurance) all the time and choose not to purchase insurance all the time. But if thing go acute, critical, or chronic than they will receive health care at some point on somebodies dime, and in a less efficient fashion (both cost-wise and out-come wise). Edited June 29, 2012 by selkirk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted June 29, 2012 Author Share Posted June 29, 2012 Let me be clear. I pay for health care. I have because I need it. But if I wanted to....I could drop it. After 2014 I will not have the choice anymore. Sure you do. You can still drop it. And pay a tax penalty. I pay a tax penalty because I dropped my mortgage. Same diff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Agreed. I never implied that Govt. was necessarily more efficient at everything, but it certainly is at some things. Please tell me which things they are more efficient at. Be specific. Police & fire departments, for example. National defense. You're confusing, kevbone. On the one hand you say you want the government to provide health care, but on the other hand you act like you think the government is too big and spout all this Ron Paul rhetoric, like closing the FDA and the EPA. One of these is not like the other, you know. It's really fucking annoying, it's like you don't even understand your own positions. Why the personal attacks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
selkirk Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Police & fire departments, for example. National defense. I'd add Infrastructure and planning, Incarceration, education, national mental health, diplomacy, healthcare, and I could probably keep going. That's not that private industry doesn't have a place in these, but IMHO they shouldn't be managed or directed by private industry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpineK Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Maybe we should let folks like Kevbone opt out. Just so long as they agree to a big tattoo on their forehead saying [font:Century Gothic]No Insurance Do Not Revive[/font] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mtguide Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 (edited) One of the best things about the passage of Obabmacare is that now Rush Limbaugh will have to move to Costa Rica, as he promised he would if it went through. And if he doesn't, I suggest that this case would be an excellent opportunity for one of the most appropriate uses of "extraordinary rendition" ever. Bye-bye,fatass! Edited June 29, 2012 by Mtguide Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Let me be clear. I pay for health care. I have because I need it. But if I wanted to....I could drop it. After 2014 I will not have the choice anymore. Sure you do. You can still drop it. And pay a tax penalty. I pay a tax penalty because I dropped my mortgage. Same diff. Its not the same difference. You are not required to buy a house. You will be required to buy med insurance. HUGE DIFFERENCE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Like it or not, it is within the Government's enumerated constitutional powers to tax you for just existing if it chooses to. It is not within an individual's power to choose to absolve themselves of such a tax without sanction. Furthermore, the phrase 'greater good' appears nowhere in the Constitution. What does appear is this: Preamble: We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. and this: Section 8: The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; These are specifically enumerated Federal powers. States, which do not draw their power from the US Constitution (but are not free to conflict with it, either) may extend their powers beyond those enumerated in the US Constitution. The People may exercise any powers not already enumerated by the US Constitution or exercised by the States. Welcome to the United States. I find that most Teabaggers I run across haven't the faintest idea of how their country is actually governed. They choose, instead, to believe in various fantasy theories promulgated by the blogosphere, completely ignorant of the document's actual text and, more importantly, the long history of precedence that interprets and defines its practical effects. Here's a complete text of the US Constitution, but its only the start of a long argument about what it all means: http://www.house.gov/house/Constitution/Constitution.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 You are not required to buy health insurance. The Supreme Court specifically ruled that requirement unconstitutional. You are required to pay the tax if you CHOOSE not to buy health insurance, however. And yes, that is a big difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 One of the best things about the passage of Obabmacare is that now Rush Limbaugh will have to move to Costa Rica, as he promised he would if it went through. And if he doesn't, I suggest that this case would be an excellent opportunity for one of the most appropriate uses of "extraordinary rendition" ever. Bye-bye,fatass! Which, ironically, has universal healthcare! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpineK Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/416048/june-28-2012/obamacare---the-broccoli-argument Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Its not the same difference. You are not required to buy a house. You will be required to buy med insurance. HUGE DIFFERENCE. Yeah, the DIFFERENCE is efficacy. Efficacy in health insurance is not much different than with vaccines - you have to hit the largest percentage of the population possible to really be effective. When large numbers of people opt-out they aren't just screwing themselves, they're screwing everyone. And that's the reason for the mandate, we need to have every single citizen in the pool; how that's best accomplished can be debated, letting people opt-out without relatively severe penalties can't be allowed under any circumstance. Again, as far as I'm concerned trying to weave this universal fabric over our entirely corrupt, for-profit, million-payers system of insurers / [large] providers is an entirely sub-optimal hack which leaves the system as corrupt as it was beforehand and achieves no benefits of scale. It's the reason why you can opt-out of public education by sending your kid to private schools, but you're still going to be paying for public schools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Its not the same difference. You are not required to buy a house. You will be required to buy med insurance. HUGE DIFFERENCE. Yeah, the DIFFERENCE is efficacy. Efficacy in health insurance is not much different than with vaccines - you have to hit the largest percentage of the population possible to really be effective. When large numbers of people opt-out they are just screwing themselves, they're screwing everyone. And that's the reason for the mandate, we need to have every single citizen in the pool; how that's best accomplished can be debated, letting people opt-out without relatively severe penalties can't be allowed under any circumstance. Again, as far as I'm concerned trying to weave this universal fabric over our entirely corrupt, for-profit, million-payers system of insurers / [large] providers is an entirely sub-optimal hack which leaves the system as corrupt as it was beforehand and achieves no benefits of scale. It's the reason why you can opt-out of public education by sending your kid to private schools, but your still going to be paying for public schools. Libs are so cute when they show their authoritarian colors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Libs are so cute when they show their authoritarian colors. Conservatives are especially cute when the only math they can do relates to the money in their own pockets. Which - when it comes to their real costs, risks, and roi of healthcare (and often vaccines )- seems to entirely elude them anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Libs are so cute when they show their authoritarian colors. Conservatives are especially cute when the only math they can do relates to the money in their own pockets. The only math libs do relates to the money in others' pockets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted June 29, 2012 Author Share Posted June 29, 2012 FIGHT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Its not the same difference. You are not required to buy a house. You will be required to buy med insurance. HUGE DIFFERENCE. Yeah, the DIFFERENCE is efficacy. Efficacy in health insurance is not much different than with vaccines - you have to hit the largest percentage of the population possible to really be effective. When large numbers of people opt-out they aren't just screwing themselves, they're screwing everyone. And that's the reason for the mandate, we need to have every single citizen in the pool; how that's best accomplished can be debated, letting people opt-out without relatively severe penalties can't be allowed under any circumstance. Again, as far as I'm concerned trying to weave this universal fabric over our entirely corrupt, for-profit, million-payers system of insurers / [large] providers is an entirely sub-optimal hack which leaves the system as corrupt as it was beforehand and achieves no benefits of scale. It's the reason why you can opt-out of public education by sending your kid to private schools, but you're still going to be paying for public schools. Blah blah blah. Its not the governments job to tell us we have to buy a product and if we dont you get taxed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eldiente Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Its not the same difference. You are not required to buy a house. You will be required to buy med insurance. HUGE DIFFERENCE. Again, as far as I'm concerned trying to weave this universal fabric over our entirely corrupt, for-profit, million-payers system of insurers / [large] providers is an entirely sub-optimal hack which leaves the system as corrupt as it was beforehand and achieves no benefits of scale. It's the reason why you can opt-out of public education by sending your kid to private schools, but you're still going to be paying for public schools. Yep, this is the problem. Nicely put. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted June 29, 2012 Author Share Posted June 29, 2012 Its not the governments job to tell us we have to buy a product and if we dont you get taxed. Health care is not a right or a privilege. It is a necessity. I agree with nate that it should be given to the public just like police and fire fighters. It comes out of our taxes just like the others. one of these is not like the other Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glassgowkiss Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Libs are so cute when they show their authoritarian colors. Conservatives are especially cute when the only math they can do relates to the money in their own pockets. The only math libs do relates to the money in others' pockets. you are a complete retard, the worst case. THIS IS REPUBLICANS, who built a system to raid other pockets- vide financial collapse of 2008. who was the president? Short memory facko. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 AssholePiss: you are on permanent ignore, you lunatic zasranec'. Pishov ty na khuj! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpineK Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 [font:Arial Black]Vote Ron Paul![/font] [font:Century Gothic]He is the only hope for the USA[/font] Job growth in the tattoo profession [font:Century Gothic]No Insurance Do Not Revive[/font] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Choada_Boy Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Libs are so cute when they show their authoritarian colors. Conservatives are especially cute when the only math they can do relates to the money in their own pockets. The only math libs do relates to the money in others' pockets. you are a complete retard, the worst case. THIS IS REPUBLICANS, who built a system to raid other pockets- vide financial collapse of 2008. who was the president? Short memory facko. I agree completely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glassgowkiss Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 AssholePiss: you are on permanent ignore, you lunatic zasranec'. Pishov ty na khuj! Oh, need a tissue? The only permanent thing was you getting fucked by your daddy in the toolshed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougd Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 News Flash: bhoener near tears... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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