Kiss my Discovery Pass

[bigwallben]

Would this include the Little Si trailhead?

Good question, I will ask my wife but I believe King County Department of Transportation built the parking lot for Little Si. Not sure if that means KC owns it.

 

State DNR owns the Little Si parking lot.

 

Yes, was there today and signs were up and many people had to run in to town to Ace hardware because you can't buy the pass anywhere near the parking area.

 

Ladies and gentlemen,

 

It's time to ride bicycles! No car license, no pass required.

[Rad]

Yep. Pathetic. We've turned our rangers into meter maids. I'm sure they don't like the situation any more than we do.

 

This country is a la carte. Schools, transportation, bridges, parks. I personally would be glad to pay taxes to fund these things if we could be confident funds would be managed efficiently...

 

[Kimmo]

.

[mr.radon]

I got some plates at the junk yard. When I park, I switch plates. Problem solved.

[num1mc]

I got some plates at the junk yard. When I park, I switch plates. Problem solved.

 

 

Don't forget your friend

 

I personally doubt that Mr Radon goes to all this trouble of hiding his VIN and surreptitiously changing plates back and fourth every time he enters a parking lot. Just last weekend, parked in the Mt Si parking lot, was a WSDFW truck which was very difficult to spot as a LEO vehicle. I'm sure he would like to give Mr Radon a little hard time, especially when all these tickets come up on the computer.

 

Fact is, anyone who would risk cuffs, jail time and a ride with a policeman to fight this is foolish, or blowing smoke up our ass to sound all tough.

 

I just don't buy it

[retiredandhappy]

I've been doing the same since the NW Forest Pass came out.

My second set of plates (CO) are for the same make model & color. Yes I do throw stuff on the dash to hid the VIN. No I've never been towed. I takes about 30 seconds to swap, not noticeable. Looks like I'm adjusting my pack. I have no front plate.

 

I'm retired and travel from state to state to hike. Only in WA, CA & OR do you have to pay to use our National Forests. Go to any other state and there is no payment. Next is the idiocy of the system. Rather then have local pay stations like any other developed country you have to go to somewhere else to buy the required permit. Arrive from out of state and get blindsided my this requirement get a ticket.

So why is it that in other states without a Forest Pass system they can maintain hundreds more trails then out here? I volunteer in CO and WA to maintain trails and help restore many washed out trails. In WA I get free NW Forest passes but refuse to use them as a protest. In CO I get beer, CO has better trails and no NAZI Forest Service meter maids. How does that happen?

I have no issue with fees to enter National Parks, just the National Forests. The Government sells logging rights to corporations that make a PROFIT off our National Forests. How does this make sense? Companies get to LOG the National Forest and make $$$$, we have to PAY $$$$ just to hike? Why aren't more people protesting this? Sheep I tell ya, you're all sheep.

[mr.radon]

num1mc

People that know me know I've been doing this for MANY years. See my post from 2008:

http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/813246/1

I have not paid a ticket yet. The first four I got I ignored, but I kept getting the letters. Last letter was five years ago.

My solution was to grab an old set of plates off a junk car (not in my name). Whenever I pull into a parking lot I swap plates real quick, I lock the car and cover the VIN number. So far the 15 some odd tickets I've gotten have never been traced back to me.

 

I'm well over 50 unpaid tickets and have yet to be tracked down like the rabid dog I am. Funny part is I've never been ticketed for expired plates; 2003 LOL...

I wont rest till this system is abolished.

 

I got some plates at the junk yard. When I park, I switch plates. Problem solved.

Don't forget your friend

I personally doubt that Mr Radon goes to all this trouble of hiding his VIN and surreptitiously changing plates back and fourth every time he enters a parking lot. Just last weekend, parked in the Mt Si parking lot, was a WSDFW truck which was very difficult to spot as a LEO vehicle. I'm sure he would like to give Mr Radon a little hard time, especially when all these tickets come up on the computer.

Fact is, anyone who would risk cuffs, jail time and a ride with a policeman to fight this is foolish, or blowing smoke up our ass to sound all tough.

I just don't buy it

 

[dougd]

So, is there a solution here for funding the park system that we are so determined to enjoy?

 

Just curious.

 

d

[billcoe]

So, is there a solution here for funding the park system that we are so determined to enjoy?

F* YES, JUST BUMP AN EXISTING TAX A SMIDGE. Pick any one that already has an infrastructure in place. The stupidity of all of this is that now a good portion of the money raised will be going to pay for people to administer this new tax, signage, persecution or miscreants etc etc. That's the reason that the last fee was dumped, it was damned unpopular sure, BUT IT DIDN'T RAISE BARELY JACK OR SHIT FOR MONEY. That was why doing it again seemed particularly and incredibly stupid to so many of us. They didn't raise money doing it before. Many people quit using the facilities where they had to pay the new tax and the bureaucrats spent a lot on running the new tax. It barely broke even it was said. Did you even read the posts above you?

The Government sells logging rights to corporations that make a PROFIT off our National Forests. How does this make sense? Companies get to LOG the National Forest and make $$$$, we have to PAY $$$$ just to hike? Why aren't more people protesting this? Sheep I tell ya, you're all sheep.

 

As this thread has quite capably shown in short order, people who feel that this is TOTAL bullshit (but are most likely otherwise fine and honest people) will now feel like the government is the enemy, and that breaking the law is now fully justified to protest this. In the end we wind up with a large group of people who are out to fuck over the petty bureaucrats on everything they can find to do so, while the petty bureaucrats don't raise much money to achieve this alienation of it's largest user group. Where else to you see this kind of Lose - lose solution?

 

To me, $30 is nothing but a pain in the ass annoyance, I find it particularly a grievance that a poor person with 4 kids going out to enjoy the land they co-own as a citizen MUST pay the same fee as say, Paul Allen or Bill Gates. Of particular annoyance is the fact that a new bureaucracy will be built up around this new tax that will suck up a lot of the $ as well. It's government stupidity and arrogance.

 

Long term, it might not be a bad thing for the country if we can get a lot of the bullshit "services" defunded and then these parking meter maids can then go get real jobs and learn to be productive members of society instead of the leeches that they are.

 

However, is that really the road we want to go down as a country?

 

Anyone wants to get updates or help fight this kind of stupidity, here's a link:

http://www.westernslopenofee.org/

[rob]

In WA I get free NW Forest passes but refuse to use them as a protest. In CO I get beer, CO has better trails and no NAZI Forest Service meter maids.

 

 

lol, NAZIS!

[dougd]

Yes, I did read the post above. Read all of em.

 

While I could support a tax increase for park access, given current political realities including anti tax movements, it would seem to be an unrealistic expectation to try to "bump an existing tax a smidge". The repeal of the tax on bottled water and candy recently said a lot about current statewide tax sentiment imo.

 

While the $30/year isn't gonna hurt me either, I can also have empathy for folks that will have a lot of trouble coming up with the money to enjoy the parks. Going through all the time and trouble to find alternate personal solutions to the immediate problem of State parks access, up to and including changing license plates on one's vehicle I would suppose could include some cost too...

 

Maybe the user fee won't help anything, but mattp's question remains, "what else can they do?" "Given current political realities", raising taxes may not be viable.

 

Anyway, I did get a chuckle over the posts about Opcycke's senior pass...

 

d

 

 

 

 

[mr.radon]

Yeah, and maybe setting aside some of the money they make by selling lumber would be a good idea?

 

Why is only CA, OR and WA doing this?

 

Very idiotic that a logging company can come into the forest and MAKE money by cutting down trees. Well, add a tax on their privilege to make money and use that to fund the trail heads. Heck most of the upkeep is already being done by volunteers.

 

I don;t have issues with National Park fees, just these National Forest fees, Discovery fees, and all the other stuff. Heck with National health care coming around the corner the govmt should be paying people to go out hike and stay healthy. But noooo.....

[bstach]

FWIW, you wouldn't be able to access many of these areas if not for roads built by logging and mining companies.

[mattp]

Stach,

My impression is that many if not most of the roads were at least largely paid for with tax money and the logging companies paid stumpage for the timber. The massive logging operations that led to building all of these road were hugely subsidized with public dollars.

[billcoe]

Essentially they were all paid for with tax money, however, due to the congressional mandates, some of the new FS roads built made the public sh*tloads of scratch, and some were just outright money losers where the bids for the timber didn't come close to covering the costs of the roads. It was the process which was mandated that they follow and they did them all regardless of profitability. Of course, when they were going to punch a road into a sensitive area (imagine a marginal productivity/less rainfall area like on the eastside of the crest where once the trees were cut they would be near impossible to reestablish), lose money doing it and screw everything up for the wildlife all at the same time, normal people who saw this were left shaking their heads at typical big government stupidity.

[Fairweather]

Stach,

My impression is that many if not most of the roads were at least largely paid for with tax money and the logging companies paid stumpage for the timber. The massive logging operations that led to building all of these road were hugely subsidized with public dollars.

 

[AlpineK]

Stach,

My impression is that many if not most of the roads were at least largely paid for with tax money and the logging companies paid stumpage for the timber. The massive logging operations that led to building all of these road were hugely subsidized with public dollars.

 

Yep, If I remember correctly in Canada the companies pays for the vast majority of logging roads. In the US the guberment builds/pays for the roads.

[akhalteke]

Stach,

My impression is that many if not most of the roads were at least largely paid for with tax money and the logging companies paid stumpage for the timber. The massive logging operations that led to building all of these road were hugely subsidized with public dollars.

 

 

Except the government actually loses money much of the time. It is a timber subsidy of sorts. The only way you are gonna squeeze blood out of that turnip is by going after the logging profits.

[Fairweather]

No doubt about it. We've even used raw log exports in the past to try and balance out our lust for imported foreign goods. That said, I think outdoor recreation remains a valid reason to keep many of these roads open and maintained. I guess the question is this: will we demand that our brand of utility (climbing, hiking, mountain biking, etc.) be likewise subsidized?

[stevetimetravlr]

WE owe SO MUCH money to the Chinese and other, that in a few short years they will not only be logging the National Forest bare, but our State and National Parks as well. Its coming, just wait..its what happens when you go bankrupt.

[dougd]

Since this thread has evolved into USFS/logging, thought I'd share this recent development. Seems on topic.

 

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2015535119_apornorthwestforestrule.html?syndication=rss

[dhrmabum]

Yep. Pathetic. We've turned our rangers into meter maids. I'm sure they don't like the situation any more than we do.

 

This country is a la carte. Schools, transportation, bridges, parks. I personally would be glad to pay taxes to fund these things if we could be confident funds would be managed efficiently...

 

To me, isn't this the crux of the matter?

Not sooo many years ago,(hmm, 10-15 or so?), one didn't need a pass of any sort to visit a NF. trailhead. Yeah, quotas for hiking in certain impacted areas, yeah for paying a NPS fee to enter a park, etc. but. . .not for trailheads to our forests.

I thought that's one piece of the pie that our taxes were supposed to pay for,ie, to use our land.

Then, hard times, NFS budgets cut for recreation, etc. and now we are required to buy these friggin' passes! Outrageous, I tell ya!

Agree much with what others have said, ie,Mr.HappilyRetired, and others, regarding just how stupid this cash cow is that were supposed to support, while for years,us, the US.Taxpayer, subsidized the logging Co's. to go in and certainly in places, rape the same forest that were now supposed to pay to play in.

 

A climbing fee to climb Mt.St.Helens. . Permits all sold out. . can't even take my kid up when I want unless I plan months in advance. . . My fault, I know. .

 

[Water]

not your fault.

and a total, complete racket with the private, non-profit (yeah right!) Mount Saint Helens Institute. If you do the math out on all permits sold each year (based no number of sold-out days and the fact that once sold the cost is non-refundable)...they get a mandatory $5 donation from each permit sold. This ends up from $50,000-65,000 a year. To maintain the climbers trail, supposedly, on Mt. St. Helens. Their executive director makes $75k or so a year, and they pay other employees not listed on the W-9 or whatever their tax form is.. total racket. Where does that money go, zilch accounting for it. Entirely IMPOSSIBLE for it to come back to the actual trail. You'd think 5-6 years at $55,000 a year we'd have an escalator. MSHI certainly has no responsibility for maintaining or servicing roads or trailheads.

[AlpineMonkey]

Some of the people on this board talk of switching license plates, hiding VIN numbers and not paying tickets in protest of the forest pass. I haven’t bought a Forest Service Pass in the last four or five years either, but protest in a slightly more “legal” way. I just park below the sign and walk the extra quarter mile.

 

I am interested in this new Discovery Pass thing…I was trying to find some information, but can’t find what I am looking for. (I know it does not apply to FS land) Is this a “usage pass?” or a “parking pass?” For example, Peshastin Pinnacles has been mothballed and gated. If I park on the street and walk in to the park, can I still be ticketed? Can I use the same “protest” for this pass that I have been using on the Forest Service pass and park outside of their boundaries? My last question is, what is this sticker usage thing for the discovery pass? I can’t find any information on the activity stickers mentioned in this thread.

 

[chris]

We've done this to ourselves - its easy to argue that the government is inefficient, but that's not the case. We're demanding the government provide more services for more people with less money, and we're hitting the wall of what's possible.

 

http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2010-05-10-taxes_N.htm

 

If you want to increase government services, don't support Eyman initiatives. Support state income taxes. Lets honestly address the issue - a system that relies on a healthy economy to generate state revenue is going to be in trouble during times of poor economic health, as with sales taxes in Washington.

 

Simply demanding that the state pay for it, and then breaking the law with righteous indignation doesn't solve the problem. Figure out a solution, talk to your friends (and not-friends) about what you want to see changed, write to your legislators about those changes you want to see made, and vote.