Draws Taken from Little Si!

[jibby]

On Wed, my draws were taken from the route below oval orface, jug or not. If you know who took the draws, sling and bieners+a petzl spirit, please PM me there information. The draws were marked with tape, too!

[Rad]

Jug or Not is 10b and is often toproped by people who have led Reptiles. Reptiles is a magnet for newbies who may not understand that people leave draws on routes on purpose. In future, it might be a good idea to clean those lower draws each time you come to work the route. In any case, I hope you get them back.

[orion_sonya]

Were you up there when they were taken?

 

Bummer about your draws, hopefully you get them back.

[Josh_HC]

they should fix that climb with perma draws so every one can enjoy it

[Rainman]

Listen up all you young climbers! If you leave stuff, people will consider it booty. It's kind of like litter. Something to be cleaned up.

[genepires]

Listen up all you young climbers! If you leave stuff, people will consider it booty. It's kind of like litter. Something to be cleaned up.

 

 

stealing is stealing regardless if you rationalize it as cleaning up trash. One draw on a sport climb is "booty" and can be considered "trash". A string of draws is obviously left for a reason and not considered "trash".

 

By dawg's (oops I mean rainman...I think raindawg = rainman) flawed logic, I am morally allowed to cleanup trail signs, mailboxes and swing sets. Anything left on public lands is free game as it can all be considered "trash". Moral citizens find it easy to leave items for public good instead of stealing them.

 

Besides, what point is there in stealing draws? Personal gain is not a viable reason as what do you do with a big pile of draws? What point is it to have more than 12 draws?

 

Stealing to make a point about excessive visual impact? The $40 impact to the sport climbing community is actually trivial.

 

So stealing draws is stupid and bad for personal karma.

Edited June 25, 2011 by genepires

[Raindawg]

Listen up all you young climbers! If you leave stuff, people will consider it booty. It's kind of like litter. Something to be cleaned up.

 

 

stealing is stealing regardless if you rationalize it as cleaning up trash. One draw on a sport climb is "booty" and can be considered "trash". A string of draws is obviously left for a reason and not considered "trash".

 

By dawg's (oops I mean rainman...I think raindawg = rainman) flawed logic, I am morally allowed to cleanup trail signs, mailboxes and swing sets. Anything left on public lands is free game as it can all be considered "trash". Moral citizens find it easy to leave items for public good instead of stealing them.

 

Besides, what point is there in stealing draws? Personal gain is not a viable reason as what do you do with a big pile of draws? What point is it to have more than 12 draws?

 

Stealing to make a point about excessive visual impact? The $40 impact to the sport climbing community is actually trivial.

 

So stealing draws is stupid and bad for personal karma.

 

A post above is by "Rainman", not "Raindawg", but I'll take the bait and respond with a perspective that is usually not considered within the contemporary climbing "community" group-think.

So....let's say you have a nice KFC bucket 'o chicken lunch and leave the profuse packaging trailside when you walk away,.... am I stealing if I clean it up?? There's another school of thought apparently beyond the comprehension of many that sees leaving draws on a climb as the selfish equivalent of not picking up after your dog crapped in the public park.

You done climbing actively? Then clean up your mess. If you're so bad, then you can easily replace them when you're actively working the route, right? Otherwise, quick-draws and such are no better than a tossed bag of Taco Bell wrappers, i.e., PERSONAL trash abandoned on public property and worthy of disposal. As a climber myself, I realize that quick-draws and 'biners cost more than a Big Mac container so the options I recommend are:

 

1) gather them all together and clip them a few bolts up so they can't be "stolen" by the average passer-byer, yet send a message to the arrogant offender who probably thinks they can leave whatever they want, whenever they want, on public property, or...

 

2) remove them and deposit them with the North Bend rangers with a note indicating that you discovered this litter at Little Si or wherever.

In short....bad puppy! clean up your mess!

Do you think that because you're a "climber" that you're above or exempt from the basic rules of use of public property?

 

 

[Alex]

Raindawg became Rainman but the song remains the same

[Alex]

Whoh! Rain CLUB!

[genepires]

So....let's say you have a nice KFC bucket 'o chicken lunch and leave the profuse packaging trailside when you walk away,.... am I stealing if I clean it up?? There's another school of thought apparently beyond the comprehension of many that sees leaving draws on a climb as the selfish equivalent of not picking up after your dog crapped in the public park.

You done climbing actively? Then clean up your mess. If you're so bad, then you can easily replace them when you're actively working the route, right? Otherwise, quick-draws and such are no better than a tossed bag of Taco Bell wrappers, i.e., PERSONAL trash abandoned on public property and worthy of disposal. As a climber myself, I realize that quick-draws and 'biners cost more than a Big Mac container so the options I recommend are:

 

1) gather them all together and clip them a few bolts up so they can't be "stolen" by the average passer-byer, yet send a message to the arrogant offender who probably thinks they can leave whatever they want, whenever they want, on public property, or...

 

2) remove them and deposit them with the North Bend rangers with a note indicating that you discovered this litter at Little Si or wherever.

In short....bad puppy! clean up your mess!

 

 

 

option 1 is a morally correct thing to do for someone opposed to fixed draws. But rarely happens.

 

option 2 is a bad idea as any negative comments told to the forest service (especially from within our own ranks) has negative consequences for climbing in general.

 

 

now onto the idea that fixed draws are trash: from a dictionary definition of trash

 

trash (trsh)

n.

1.

a. Worthless or discarded material or objects; refuse or rubbish.

b. Something broken off or removed to be discarded, especially plant trimmings.

c. The refuse of sugar cane after extraction of the juice.

2. A place or receptacle where rubbish is discarded: threw the wrapper in the trash.

3.

a. Empty words or ideas.

b. Worthless or offensive literary or artistic material.

c. Disparaging, often abusive speech about a person or group.

4. A person or group of people regarded as worthless or contemptible.

tr.v. trashed, trash·ing, trash·es

1. Slang

a. To throw away; discard: trashed the broken toaster.

b. To wreck or destroy by or as if by vandalism; reduce to trash or ruins.

c. To beat up; assault.

d. To subject to scathing criticism or abuse; attack verbally: "The ... professor trashes conservative ... proposals as well as liberal nostrums" (Michael Marien).

2.

a. To remove twigs or branches from.

b. To cut off the outer leaves of (growing sugar cane).

 

 

 

no where does leaving anything behind with the purpose of using it again by anyone else considered "trash". Arguments about fixed draws should not use the "trash" path as it is technically flawed.

 

[backclipped]

Besides, what point is there in stealing draws? Personal gain is not a viable reason as what do you do with a big pile of draws? What point is it to have more than 12 draws?

 

When the route you're fixing to climb has more than 10 clips....duh.

[backclipped]

I get a kick out of the circles climbers talk themselves around. Bro-Brah-Blah-Blah. Bottom line: totally unacceptable that your gear got swiped. In the future you might want to consider cleaning your clips off of your moderate project. After all, the crag ain't your bedroom, and dickheaded people will do dickheaded things. Consider this a hard lesson learned.

 

[Off_White]

In the future you might want to consider cleaning your clips off of your moderate project.

 

If you think Oval Orifice at 13- is moderate you can be my new hero...

[JosephH]

Only one solution:

 

[backclipped]

Looks like I misread...and stuck my big fungal toed foot in my mouth. I will never, ever be able to climb that grade. I was under the impression that Oval Orifice is 10b, not 13-.........yup, there it is right there on MP.com. Sorry I can't be your new hero.

 

[matt_m]

Fixed/Project Draws are ALWAYS an easy target for those pre-disposed to hating all things sport climbing.

 

There's never any mention of: - Fixed Rap Slings, Rusty Pins, Pin Scars etc etc.

 

The MESS of TAT and Webbing at the top of Prusik Peak (or was it Box Top?) the last time I was up there was ugly and much more in line with what "trash" is than some temporarily left QDs that WILL be picked up by their owner.

 

When it comes down to it, project draws etc are just the easiest target for those that don't like sport climbing and it's emphasis on athleticism in lieu of "adventure and risk".

 

Don't get me wrong, I dislike scenes like the fixed-draw bonanza Joseph posted up thread and would complain about that mess as well but, I have no qualms with project draws or the OCCASIONAL Perma-Draw at areas where it fits with the local "Style".

 

[brad]

You didn't misread anything. He said "the route below oval orifice, jug or not". And i fully agree that leaving draws on a 10b that has anchors that are accessible from a 5.9 is a sure way to lose your draws. so you're back to hero status!!!!!

 

[orion_sonya]

Only one solution:

 

exactly, hang some more draws and keep climbing.

[wdietsch]

Fixed/Project Draws are ALWAYS an easy target for those pre-disposed to hating all things sport climbing.

 

I doubt many traditional climbers would waste their time targeting Little Si to steal draws. Fact of the matter is .. dirt bag climbers exists in all elements of the sport.

 

 

The MESS of TAT and Webbing at the top of Prusik Peak (or was it Box Top?) the last time I was up there was ugly and much more in line with what "trash" is than some temporarily left QDs that WILL be picked up by their owner.

 

I hope you took some time to clean it up and replace it with some new webbing.

 

To leave gear hanging and expect it to be there when you come back is pretty naive.

 

 

[RuMR]

maybe the smith rock leprechaun visited si??

[matt_m]

I doubt many traditional climbers would waste their time targeting Little Si to steal draws. Fact of the matter is .. dirt bag climbers exists in all elements of the sport.

 

"Easy Target" as in easy to complain about. It's a whole different level of low to TARGET an area to take draws!

 

I hope you took some time to clean it up and replace it with some new webbing.

 

I chopped and took the really bleached stuff, left behind one new sling since it was early in the season. The truly low impact solution to that TAT mess (and many others in the alpine) is to put in a SS Double Ring Rap Anchor. Even staunchly tradition and anti-bolt areas like the Gunks recognized that in some circumstances, two bolt rap stations were WAY lower impact that slings, tat, trees etc.

 

To leave gear hanging and expect it to be there when you come back is pretty naive.

 

To leave gear hanging on harder routes at a well established sport crag is SOP. To claim other wise is to make an attempt to justify ones dislike of "project gear" and excuse climbers taking others gear as "expected". Any even remotely experienced climber worth a damn can pretty easily tell booty (in a crack or what have you) or a bail biner/draw vs project draws. While there may be some grey areas they're few and far between. Single Biner at the crux bolt? Bail. Cam in crack with no one to be seen - booty. 5 draws on a hard route - Project.

See here for reference chart.

 

 

I'm not naive though. I wouldn't leave draws hanging @ L-worth, Index or Vantage and expect to see them again. They're NOT established SPORT areas but a mix of many styles. Exit 32 and Smith - different story.

 

 

 

 

 

[jibby]

The draws were left because the route is hard to clean from 14 clips up. If ya here anyone talking about booty from little si, please ask them to leave the proj draws alone, thanks! A noob probably took them unknowingly.

[Raindawg]

To leave gear hanging on harder routes at a well established sport crag is SOP. To claim other wise is to make an attempt to justify ones dislike of "project gear" and excuse climbers taking others gear as "expected". Any even remotely experienced climber worth a damn can pretty easily tell booty (in a crack or what have you) or a bail biner/draw vs project draws. While there may be some grey areas they're few and far between. Single Biner at the crux bolt? Bail. Cam in crack with no one to be seen - booty. 5 draws on a hard route - Project.

See here for reference chart.

 

 

I'm not naive though. I wouldn't leave draws hanging @ L-worth, Index or Vantage and expect to see them again. They're NOT established SPORT areas but a mix of many styles. Exit 32 and Smith - different story.

 

The "SOP" noted above is "LAME". Plenty of folks don't care about personl "proj"'s and it is seen as selfish and obstructive.

 

And the above cited "reference chart" which claims there is only one rule (don't be an a-hole)...is literally FULL OF RULES!!!

 

And one more thing....the oft-commented upon Smith Rocks draw-poacher video: after watching that confrontation several times, I'm not sure who is more ridiculous: the guy stripping the route, or the characters who think they have a right to leave their stuff there as long as they want because the route is apparently extra-hard thus justifying the sport-climbing version of a Himalayan siege-climb. Plenty of laughs in that scenario inspired by both sides. Here's a rule: with very few exceptions (e.g. rap stations), TAKE YOUR TOYS BACK HOME WHEN YOU'RE DONE PLAYING FOR THE DAY.

[backclipped]

I'm too lazy to look it up myself. Do any of you lawyer types know where the law stands on removing toys from public land? It's not like a cat burglar shadow danced his way into your house and snatched your much throttled Prince Adams action figure out of your secret toy box.

 

Leaving draws up is selfish and lazy. Period. And it looks like shit, and can further scar the offending wall.

 

Are you really "sending a proj" when you don't even hang the draws on your attempt?

Edited June 28, 2011 by backclipped

[Drederek]

OK its starting to make sense now, the 10b is the approach pitch to the 13-. Ya shoulda reclimbed the easy part, bailed and cleaned off the anchor at the bottom of yer proj. Guess you know that now. You gonna be at the gym wednesday? I got a few old draws for ya Jibby.